Welcome to another episode of ADHD-ish! In today’s conversation, Diann Wingert, host and therapist-turned-business strategist, sits down with longtime ADHD coach and thought leader Jeff Copper to explore his groundbreaking new approach: “Cognitive Ergonomics from the Inside Out.”

Together, they dive into the roots of executive function challenges, drawing on insights from Dr. Russell Barkley, and discuss why traditional ADHD advice doesn’t always translate to real-world results.

Jeff Copper explains the concept of “cognitive illiteracy” and shares how his attention scope experiences can help make the invisible struggles of ADHD tangible. You’ll hear practical strategies—like the power of direct, oral conversations in problem-solving—and fresh perspectives on mindfulness for busy brains.

Why You’ll Love It

Whether you’re newly diagnosed, deep in your ADHD self-awareness journey, or have “tried all the things,” this episode invites you to see your challenges—and strengths—through a radically new, pragmatic lens. If you geek out on intellectual curiosity and want to see what’s “under the hood,” check out Jeff Cooper’s Cognitive Ergonomics resources (link below).

What you’ll learn:

1. Cognitive Ergonomics, Explained: No engineering degree required—Jeff Copper breaks down this powerful new way to understand how your brain REALLY operates.
2. The Concept of “Cognitive Illiteracy”: What does it mean to be cognitively illiterate? Why is it not as negative as it sounds? Spoiler: it’s about discovering things you couldn’t see before!
3. Experiencing Attention Scope: Learn how using your non-dominant hand during everyday tasks can help you feel executive function challenges—and practice self-awareness.
4. Mindfulness, Reimagined: Forget trying to get your mind to go blank—get practical tips for being present in the now (and why that matters for your productivity and focus).

Fun Fact from the Episode:

If you’ve ever solved a problem just by voicing it to someone (or even sending a voice note!), you’re already practicing cognitive ergonomics. In fact, Jeff Copper says some folks can process and solve their own issues simply by “downloading” a problem out loud—even if nobody responds!

About today’s guest, Jeff Copper

Jeff Copper is a cognitive engineer, thought leader, and ADHD coach. He is the founder of DIG Coaching, Attention Talk Radio, and Attention Talk Video, and holds professional designations from ICF and PAAC and certifications from ADD Coach Academy and Coaches Training Institute. Jeff developed Cognitive Ergonomics From the Inside Out®, a radical departure from the current ADHD intervention paradigm. In recognition of his contributions, he received the ACO's 2022 Professional Excellence Award. Jeff continues to innovate in attention coaching, helping individuals understand and manage their ADHD challenges.

Connect with Jeff:

DIG Coaching Practice - Attention Talk Radio Podcast - LinkedIn - Email

Cognitive Ergonomics From the Inside Out

Your ADHD-ish host, Diann Wingert

Diann Wingert brings decades of experience as a psychotherapist and is now a sought-after coach to entrepreneurs with ADHD traits. Her style is direct, strategic, and always honest—peppered with the insight of someone who lives and breathes the neurodivergent experience.

Known for her candor and her refusal to compromise on what matters, Diann Wingert is a fierce advocate for self-acceptance and meaningful growth at the intersection of neurodivergence and entrepreneurship.

Mentioned during this interview:

Russell A Barkley, PhD - Dr. Charles Parker - The Four Tendencies - John Maxwell

Now what?

If this episode got you thinking in a new way about your ADHD, now would be a perfect time to leave that 5-star rating and review you keep meaning to leave. Here’s the link to make it happen. Thank you!

And, if you are connected with Jeff Copper, or are going to start now, be sure to reach out and let him know your thoughts on cognitive ergonomics: jeff@digcoaching.com

© 2026 ADHD-ish Podcast. Intro music by Ishan Dincer / Melody Loops / Outro music by Vladimir / Bobi Music / All rights reserved.

H: So, Jeff, I have been reading your concept paper on cognitive ergonomics from the inside out, and I have to tell you, my brain was kind of toggling between this is freaking brilliant and wait a minute, slow the fuck down, I'm not an engineer. Which is perfect, because I think that's exactly what our listeners are going to experience when they're trying to wrap their mind around this. And because I think this new concept of yours is so exciting, let's make a deal. You can explain this like an engineer, and I'll try to translate it through my therapist turned business strategist lens. Do we have a deal?

G: Definitely.

H: Awesome, okay.

G: If I may, can I make a comment? I'd like to acknowledge you as an individual and thought leader that is willing to bring this stuff on and everybody. What I'm going to be talking about today is some stuff that I've got it doesn't necessarily represent Diann's views and stuff like that, but you're giving me the forum to open up people and to reach people and for them to make determinations on their own. And I just want to be kind of clear on that, that you're giving me an opportunity, I appreciate it. And what we're going to present is what I think is really cool information, but some people might not care from it. Some people might think it's brilliant, that's all fine. We're all good with that, make sense?

H: Yes, absolutely and I welcome the opportunity to hear from you. I just celebrated recently five and a half years with this podcast, 300 episodes. I kind of thought that was a big freaking deal, but you've been doing it three times as long, so I humble in your presence. Okay, let's get right to it. I want to kick off, Jeff, with the kind of like the why now because you've been an ADHD coach for over 15 years. And you reached a point where you realized, you know what, the tried and true approaches just weren't cutting it anymore. Now I had a similar moment myself when I stopped calling myself an ADHD coach and started really positioning myself more as a business, an ADHD informed business strategist. So what got you turning in the direction of what is now cognitive ergonomics from the inside out?

H: Awesome. But and I was a cognitive therapist long before I became a, you know, serial business owner and business coach. So I'm always keyed in on anything on the cognitive lines. I'm a thinker, you're a thinker, but you use an expression that I know people after hearing this conversation, they're going to rush to your website, they're going to download your one sheet. They're going to want to know more and more about this. But they may stumble across an expression that could trigger a few people's RSD and that is the term cognitively illiterate. So help me understand what you're actually referring to with that term cognitively illiterate.

G: So everybody, this is going to be kind of a little intellectual, but really to kind of frame this all out and when we get through this, happy work with you. When I'm talking about cognitively illiterate, we make observations with our senses aided by some type of technology. Microscope, telescope, stethoscope, MRI, CAT scan, et cetera right? And when it comes to ADHD, we've observed it based off of behavior we view it through behavior. Cognitive ergonomics is an engineering field of engineering. And the reason I say it's a field of engineering is because we have technology now that we didn't have before.

What I've done is develop attention scope, which is a collection of simulated experiences that I put you in so you can witness or feel the physical manifestation of what Dr. Barkley has defined. So the point is, since we've defined it and now we have a lens to look at it, we can begin to make factual observations and begin to engineer accommodations to relieve the impairment. So real simply, when I say illiterate, I don't mean it to be a derogatory term. It's just before now we never knew what to look for and we never had a means to look at it, now we do.

So we can now use this lens and become cognitively illiterate because we're bringing tangibility to the intangible, just like we brought tangibility to electricity, which before was intangible. So I'm using that as a metaphor to really understand the context of that word that people could take offense from. And I don't mean anybody to take offense, I'm just trying to illustrate how we now have the means to see and define things that we didn't before.

H: I really think of it as how we become more self aware from an ADHD perspective because a lot of folks really think they're more self aware than they are. And we can be self aware about many, many things, but really be cognitively illiterate when it comes to our ADHD traits. So I want you to walk us through the attention scope experience and let me maybe give you a specific example. I'm thinking a typical client for me is someone who can hyper focus for six hours, but they can't focus for five minutes on something that's boring to them. How does the tension scope help that?

G: Well, actually, I'm going to turn this direction because this is actually a paradigm and it looks at things a little bit differently so let me give you an example of this. Dr. Barkley defines self awareness, emotional self regulation, self restraint, visual imagery, verbal working memory, and playing with information in your mind as executive functions. So an example is attention scope one of the things that I would have people do if they're trying to become a cognitive engineer is I would actually have you make a meal, eat a meal, and clean a meal up using your less dominant hand. Now when you do that emotionally, you'll come back and say, that was awkward and I got frustrated. Those are very emotional, subjective observations.

But again, this is a field of engineering, this is not about that. So the question really is, is in that experience, I'm going to tell you, you should be able to recognize self awareness. What are the characteristics of self awareness? You have to be on guard every moment of that exercise. It takes a lot of energy. Okay, well, that's what it is, emotional self regulation. Did you notice you get frustrated? You notice how you calm yourself down. Your extension scope effectively is to put you in these experiences. And if you do this exercise, you can begin to witness at least four, usually five, sometimes six, of what Dr. Barkley has defined.

Again, it's specifically to say this is what it is, so you understand the characteristics and you can recognize it in daily life. And so in a sense, you could say there's a mindfulness component to it, but that's because we're defining what it is, bringing tangibility in it. And one of the things that you'll notice in that exercise is you've got to be self aware of that every moment of the exercise, in other words, you have to be on guard. On guard takes a lot of energy and so when we start talking about things that we're dealing with ADHD, a lot of neurotypicals expect them to do certain things where it's they've got to be on guard and regulate or restrain their urge right.

I'm using the dominant hand to represent the automatic brain and when I switch it over, you're actually having to self regulate. And so the experience of attention scope is literally to say, okay, we've talked about what it's like to regulate yourself and to understand these things, but I'm going to put you in experience so you have something tangible to compare it to. What's fun is when I put a neurotypical in this exercise, they're like, oh my God. And what's fun, Diann, is they'll go through the exercise and invariably they'll get a little frustrated and they'll start to shortcut the exercise. In that moment, I'm saying, are you recognizing that you're exhibiting ADHD behavior, you're trying to get out of it.

So the point that we're having here is, I know this is kind of intellectual conversation, but the point really is attention scope is just simulated experiences to put people in. Oh, that's what they mean. Oh, shit, that's really, really, really hard. Oh my God, this is frustrating me. And to have neurotypicals to simulate the experience, to say, yeah, it's not ADHD, but this is what it feels like and how it manifests. And for people with ADHD, it's your normal, is your normal. You've never had anything to compare it to. So the point of these exercises really to bring tangibility to what Dr. Barkley has defined. Does that make sense?

H: Oh, I love it so much. And I love that it's experiential, Jeff, because even though I love me some cognitive stuff and you do too, but most folks with ADHD are only going to learn passively unless they're actually having an opportunity to experience it. And then like what you talk about, you know, going for the AHA's, right? It's because that's your coaching style, that's you. You make it tangible, you make it real. You literally put people in a simulation and then it's like, oh, and I'm so glad that you brought up mindfulness. As someone who's been on the Buddhist path for, I think close to 30 years, I'm all about that. But most folks with ADHD have a whole different idea about what mindfulness is.

I think you and I have a similar idea. I just break it down to as simple as this, mindfulness is being open to what is, being curious about what the experience is about and not judging any of it. You don't have to change your religion. You don't have to sit down and cross your legs and try to steal your busy brain, it's just being more aware in the moment. Now, you might have better luck than me at convincing some people whose minds go a million miles a minute but why? And how they can actually observe their own cognition, especially the ones who are absolutely convinced I work better under pressure. What's your strategy because, well, so I might need this.

G: So let's talk about mindfulness and meditation, particularly meditation people have this like, Zen like kind of thought of it. I, as an ex-athlete, look at these things from an athletic perspective. Meditation is actually being present with your breath when you notice your mind wander to an extraneous thought, the idea is you recognize it and you bring it back to this particular moment. It's a moment of practice. People with ADHD, their brain's all over the place. The idea is to notice it, let it go, and bring it back to now. To me, it's just like an athlete, a basketball player practicing free throws, or a tennis player.

What I think a lot of people miss is that when you talk about these things, the purpose of it is it's an attention exercise for you to practice so that you can be present in everyday life. And I'm relating that back to Dr. Barkley's model in the kitchen exercise. To be present, you have to be present every moment that to be on guard. And so the mindfulness practice, a lot of people with ADHD, they don't, they'll do these things but they don't recognize what they're really for. It's so that you can be in the moment in everyday life where your mind's not around that stuff.

And that relates really back to self awareness. And I've got people sometimes that struggle and I will have them do that. Our goal is you got to go to the mental gym, practice the mind. And by the way, mindfulness is focusing on the now, meditation is focusing on your breath. Those are all about the now. And I try to relate them over to the executive functions and say you're not just doing this to do in it, you're doing to practice it so that you can, you can exhibit this in the game of life. Make sense?

H: Yeah, we're not very good at following directions. I think that's why you and I and so many of us are self employed because we may not be a good boss of ourselves at all times, but we sure don't want anyone else telling us what to do, even when we desperately need it. So telling people and inviting them to understand why you, you're encouraging them to try this why it connecting the dots for them. I don't know if you ever have gone through the Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies. I find it really helpful. It's not an ADHD thing. It's good for one thing and that is understanding how people respond to expectations, their own and others and I'm a questioner in that framework. And a questioner can understand only do what is being asked of them when they understand the why.

I can't just blindly follow. Never could people think that's oppositional. They think it's having trouble with authority figures. No, I just need to know, I need to know the why and you teach from that perspective too. When you help people understand why they need this kind of self awareness and how it connects to words. They're familiar with the executive functioning issues from all their ADHD reading and listening to podcasts like yours and mine. And then they're like, oh and that's why I think it's so brilliant that you use the term the aha moments. Because that's exactly it's like I've heard this a 10,000 times and in this way now I understand why, so I can actually be willing to do it.

G: This is a subtlety a lot of people with ADHD lot of people out there have a lot of aha moments when it comes to ADHD because they understand how ADHD presents itself symptomatically. What ergonomics is about is the aha, not that it presents, but underneath it of all, why it presents that way right. And so I'm just using that as a metaphor. Like we were just talking about mindfulness and I'm kind of like, people do it, but they don't know why, I'm like, okay, here's why you're doing. That's why I use the athletic metaphor to say it's really about developing that self awareness and practicing it. So I just wanted to kind of highlight that a lot of what I do is trying to help the why not from the symptomatic presentation, but the underlying. What executive functions are involved and how are they reacting that's producing that behavior.

H: That totally makes sense. Yeah because I think, you know, and this may be true developmentally, when people first find out that they have ADHD, whether they figure it out because they're on TikTok way too much, or they. Someone says, you know, I think you just might be or their kid gets diagnosed and the doctor says, so which one of you did this come from? But however they land there the first couple of years, seems to me that there's a ton of learning about how to recognize it. And it's like, oh, that's why I do that, oh, that's why I do that and that it feels helpful.

But then after you've had enough of that, it's like, okay, I have more insight, yay me, now what? That's when this approach can really land because now it's like, all right, I know myself better now, so what do I do about it and it's a very practical application. Can we take like a typical scenario, let's say an entrepreneur, because these are the folks that you and I both work with and take one application so that we can let the listeners see, like just walk us through the application of cognitive ergonomics so they can even have a little bit of a real world experience of it just listening to this conversation.

G: Give me a second part of understanding this answer would be. Have to go back and give a lot of context because cognitive ergonomics is a lens, if you will, that looks at everything differently. So I'm going to kind of boil this down a little bit. ADHD is an executive functioning impairment. An impairment means it's less efficient. So at the end of the day, looking at Dr. Barkley's model, executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. If you're not solving a problem, you're not engaging your executive functions.

So with that being said, problems are characterized as being multifaceted and ambiguous. Multifaceted and ambiguous, okay, so planning, managing time, making decisions, they're all multifaceted and ambiguous. That's why people with ADHD have difficulty. And I want a caveat here when I'm talking about an impairment, we're talking about problem solving in mind. When you do it out of mind, this doesn't apply. And really defining that gets a little bit complicated probably more for the time that we have, but let's just kind of go with where we are.

So if you understand executive functions are impaired at problem solving and problems are multifaceted, ubiquitous. That's why I get cocky when somebody calls me up with ADHD and I can blatantly state, I don't even have to see your procrastination list. I can guarantee it, 80% is rooted in some level of ambiguity. Now here's the thing, what cognitive ergonomics, it's a lens that we're looking through to make factual based observation, to make discoveries. So with what we've described, okay, makes some sense. But here's the kicker, Diann, it's generally accepted among historians that language was derived for one reason, to solve shared problems.

Had we not had problems, language would have never come about. Now we use it for other things. Now here's the thing, Diann, direct oral conversation is the most basic fundamental form of problem solving. It's been around for thousands of years. So what ergonomics is basically stating, and this is an axiom that axioms of truth built on truth. I know a bunch of big words, but we're basically trying to make the argument that people with ADHD need to have direct oral conversations to problem solve. Neurotypicals need those conversations, we all do.

However, because of the impairment, we're arguing that those with ADHD needed more. So we're trying to make the argument is that it's legitimate to have somebody sit down and say, hey, Diann, what does your day look like? They're not solving the problem, but they're going to engage in oral conversation for you to resolve the problem. And you know, Diann, one of the things that's a telltale sign, people with ADHD, they have ideas and they like to learn. You use executive functions for that. But it's the execution where it really kind of comes into play. And most business owners, they go to a point in time in their business and they begin to hit areas of ambiguity and blah, blah, blah, blah. And they have a tendency to think that they should do it on their own.

Yet if they watch their behavior, I can pretty much say 90% of the time, if you have direct oral conversations with other people, usually it moves you forward. Now, that's an intangible accommodation that people don't really want to do. But again, it's amazing when I'm working with entrepreneurs, I'm like, if you notice a lot of your success where the idea and stuff came from, collaboration with others. And so all of a sudden, what cognitive ergonomics does, it helps us reveal intangible accommodations that have been hidden in plain sight for thousands of years. Diann, one of the things that you do, right, as a consultant or a coach or whatever, you engage people every day in direct oral conversations to help them solve problems. That's what you do. And people come to you because, I mean, look at this.

When you have problems at school, problems at work, mental health problems, the go to on all of those is to go to have direct oral conversations, whether it's the teacher, a tutor, your boss, a peer, a coach, a therapist, and all we're doing is we're just making the case that these are not considered legitimate accommodations because they've been invisible. Remember, I go back to electricity at one point in time, we didn't know what it is. We're bringing tangibility to say, it's been around and it's in the workplace, it's there, but people don't know it. And if we can just bring that out and it can be accepted, then people can do this and they can really begin to thrive. I mean, there's a lot of people with ADHD that can kill it. They just need to collaborate and sometimes it's just talking out loud. The other person doesn't have to say anything. They can solve their own problems, and we're just trying to bring legitimacy to that so they can get those accommodations.

H: Oh, I love this so much. I mean, my first degree is in communications. I later went back and got a master's in social work. But I love the way you're framing this, because it's true. When people have problems and their friends listen and try to help as much as they can, they say, I think you need to talk to someone. And it's like, yes, you do and it needs to be the right someone. And you're absolutely right about being most people will say, oh, I'm a verbal processor.

I use Voxer in between my coaching calls. And many of my clients say, I don't need to respond to this. I just need to do this download. And over the course of that recorded Voxer message, they literally solve their own problem. And because they know they're literally getting it out of their brain and into the real world, even if they weren't sure I listened to it, which I always do, it still helps them. So this, like you, I am in a thousand percent agreement.

G: So, Diann, the end of the day is, remember, we go back to the why, right? You're talking about the verbal processors we're applying. We've got the tools now to provide the legitimacy to what's been there for thousands of years. And people have been reluctant to own that, accept it. Now, here's the thing I want you to understand is it's not called ADHD ergonomics from the inside out. It's called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. And remember how I said about ambiguity, right? So literally, it's long story, but my son needs to get something notarized and I was trying to call, make it easy for him. So I was calling Bank of America to see if they have a notary that's there and how it works. I call them, right I get in a phone tree, nobody's available, and I hit a dead end. All they're doing is sending me to the Internet. Now, the problem with it is a notary is not on the FAQ page at that particular area so now I'm hit with a wall.

I don't know if they're going to do that. There's a lot of time. So now what do I do? I escape the discomfort of this and say, I'll come back to it later. And here's where I'm going with this cognitive ergonomics was not designed just for people with ADHD. It's anybody with executive function impairment. And this is a perfect example having the ability to have a conversation at the branch to get this information to solve the problem is there. It used to be taken care of it's all been removed. And so part of this is also to legitimize the need for direct oral conversation. Because if it's not on the FAQ list, how do you get your answer? It's insane. Everybody's having problems with this. So anyway, I just wanted to kind of digress there for a second to say this is not just ADHD. It's literally for everybody.

H: Actually, I think you just must be psychic because as we're getting close to wrapping up Jeff, that was one of the questions I wanted to go to, which was, it sounds to me like this could be helpful for everyone, not just folks with ADHD. And by the way, for those listening, we're not the only ones who have executive function challenges. There are other folks that do, too so this could literally help anyone. And my favorite part about it, other than the fact that you are absolutely highlighting the value of direct oral conversation and also why so many people feel badly about. I don't want to go to the website. I don't want to read the thing. I don't want to text. I don't want to.

H: And you're making this so tantalizing. Because if I know one thing about folks with ADHD, and I think I know a few things about them, they're curious af. And so you have given us enough information about this new way of dealing with our executive functioning impairments with some really exciting phrasing and tons of relatability. And I'm absolutely certain that people are like, okay, you sold me, I want to know more. Where should they go and what would be the first step to finding out about this new, exciting way of dealing with what's under the hood.

G: If they go to cognitive-ergonomics.com that will take you to our website. I want to be clear about this. Cognitive ergonomics, it's a paradigm, we're bringing engineering. It's an engineering approach. It's not psychology. It's not coaching. It's there and there's a disclaimer video. If you're really curious about this, it's fine. We love it. But if you take the program right, I want to be clear. People like things that are different, but they don't like to be wrong. And because we're taking a different look at it, we've got to change your conceptual understanding. It's like you're running east for a sunset. We've got to turn you around to go the other direction. And so if you're sensitive to correction or you struggle with that, please do not take this class. We believe that it stands on its own merit. I think this thing is absolutely amazing.

But if you're somebody that is, like, debilitated by shame or you have a lot of emotions or you don't like to be corrected, I wouldn't want you to take the program because it actually could do some harm to you based off of that. But if you have an open mind and an engineering mindset, you'll be amazed. It reveals all kinds of anomalies about ADHD that are hidden in plain sight that most people can't see because they're stuck with biased from judging ADHD on visible behavior. And I just want to make that caveat. I think it's really, really powerful. But we do a disclaimer, it's going to rattle. You're going to be overwhelmed in the program for a couple calls, and it settles all out, because there's a lot of information, but we're changing your conceptual understanding of how you look at things and so I just want people to be aware of that.

H: Well, I appreciate the informed consent and the disclaimer because you're right. And I think it's one of the things that's exciting about our field is that there are a lot of different approaches and if you choose the ones that are well suited to where you are in your ADHD journey and your own specific personality, your trauma history, all that stuff, you can find someone to help you. For folks that are more intellectual and have kind of blown through all the different approaches and they're like, yeah, okay, I'm more insightful about that. Yeah, okay, I get that. Okay, yeah, that helps.

But they really need to understand what's going on under the hood to optimize the way they live and work with ADHD, this may be exactly what you've been looking for. I'll make sure we link to everything, including some more information about Dr. Russell Barkley, if you're not as familiar with him already, Jeff's podcast, Jeff's website, and this brand new approach. What a delightful conversation, my friend. Thank you so much for being with us.

G: If I may, I really want to make a plug for you. There's a lot of people out there that would never have me come on and talk about something like this. And I just got to, as a thought leader, you're open enough to bring different views on expose people so that they can make the determination if it has merit. So again, thank you for what you do and I'd like to thank you for the opportunity.

H: You are so welcome.