Here is a two page article about regaining your virginity if you wanted it back or needed to.
msnbc.msn.com/id/23254178
the reasons for restoration range from a ridiculous reason of renewal or rational to be rescued from radical religious revenge."to make my man happy" is disgusting and to save herself from an honor killing is terrifying.
Virginity as in the Old Testament was VERY important only because MEN wanted to be sure their first born is really theirs. That's it! Especially if it is a boy for inheritance, bloodlines, royalty, race......I think it also explains why having multiple wives was okay way back then. If the first wife was unable to produce a man-child their first try, then the master of the house would need another virgin wife and maybe more to make sure his first born son was really really his. It was also helpful for him in knowing he would not contract an STD.
This is why the religious are obsessed with sex & virginity even today. I find it amusing (not really) when Christians point out how backwards it is how Muslims treat their women. But they themselves push abstinence only so called sex education on our teenagers because they too proscribe to this archaic biblical form of birth control. Control not Prevention. Remember it was only recently as the 1920s were American women were allowed to vote, to be recognized as fully participating U.S. citizens. Believe you me, not because of reasons found in the bible. This happened because a few liberal Christian women and freethinkers of the time dared to speak up and made it happen.
And, am I correct in saying it appears it's just the women who must be chaste until marriage? If a man catches his wife "knowing" another man he may kill her or have her killed to protect his family's honor. The punishment does not fit the crime, like hell in eternity because one worshipped the wrong god. What about the dude she was with??
What is the biological evolutionary explanation for the hymen?The hymen is "leftover scrim in the spot where the separately forming external and internal vaginal organs join during gestation". Not a very sexy answer is it.
Another idea I found says it protects the uterus until the woman (girl) matures and is ready to reproduce. This can happen as early as 11 years old. This is only a "theory" but for you literal types out there it doesn't mean God invented the hymen. Back in the caveman days, 15 was middle age. So humans needed to breed earlier and often to guarantee the species survived.
I was surprised how little information there was out on the WWW when I googled Hymen. Most of the hits were opinions and some from Christians proclaiming that the Hymen disproves evolution. Tee Hee, silly people.
It’s only natural. The menstrual period means the female body is ready and the broken hymen means it was her first sexual encounter. Ta Da! This is how us mammals reproduce. Homo sapien females are not the only critters with a hymen.Humans can mate at any time all year round. Many mammals may not have a hymen because they have to go into heat before they can successfully mate.
Having no hymen does not necessarily mean she done it. A hymen can be broken in other ways and some girls are born without one. I wonder how many women have been killed or outcast (to become prostitutes) because this happened to them. Still do? Adultery is a so called sin; because again the male wants to be confident (as possible) all his children are really his. It became socially convenient for men when they figured it out and how they could use it for their benefit.
Hymen is the Greek God of Marriage. Again the Catholics stealing from the pagans.
Did Eve have a hymen? She, I mean Adam didn't need one? Kinda like the question, did Adam and Eve have belly buttons?
I'm on a roll today
Feb 29, 2008
Leap Year & Arcane Mathematics
The how and why of Leap Year
By MICHAEL JAMISON - Missoulian - 02/29/08
Ode to Leap Day - Thirty days hath September, April, June and November. All the rest have 31, save February. That’s the real odd one.KALISPELL — Today is an extra, a bonus, a freebie, like the $5 bill you found in the pocket of that spring coat you hadn’t worn for a year.Spend it well. Because you won’t get another for four more years.This year, 2008, is a leap year, which means February comes with a whole extra day, and a Friday at that.The calendrical convolution that is this last day of the second month of the fourth year is actually the cultural wreckage left behind from a collision between physics and metaphysics.Scientist Stephen Jay Gould unraveled the arcane mathematics of it all in his slim but elegant volume, “Questioning the Millennium: A Rationalist’s Guide to a Precisely Arbitrary Countdown.”
The story begins in the days of Julius Caesar, with the first chapters written in the stars the concepts of days (Earth’s rotation), months (moon’s revolution) and years (Earth’s revolution.)Trouble is, none is an easy multiple of the others, a fact that has plagued calendar makers from the beginning.A year is not, as we conveniently assume, a simple cycle of 365 days. Rather, it’s a cycle of 365 days, five hours, 48 minutes and 45.96768 seconds. In other words, a year is about a quarter of a day too long, and those extra bits tend to pile up after a while.Back in 45 B.C., Julius Caesar absorbed those bits in his Julian calendar by adding a leap year every fourth year an extra day, Feb. 29.His was a closer approximation of celestial reality, but still not quite on the mark. A year was not, unfortunately, exactly 365.25 days long. It was 365.2422 days long.The difference, so seemingly slight, tallies up to about 11 minutes and 14 seconds each year. Caesar, it seems, had overreached.The extra continued to pile up, at the rate of about seven days every 1,000 years.Who cares? Well, pretty much everyone in the Middle Ages. Farmers and astronomers cared, because the additional days meant “fixed” dates such as the spring equinox or the winter solstice kept sliding around the calendar.Priests cared, too, because celebrations such as Easter also meandered through the calendar.By the 16th century, Pope Gregory XIII had had enough. A full 10 days had stacked up, and he decided to put a stop to the problem once and for all.He called on his mathematical adviser, Christopher Clavius, who in 1582 unveiled the Gregorian calendar, which we still use today.Clavius’ first order of business was to clear out those extra days. The pope handled that from the top down: he simply declared that, in 1582, Oct. 5 through 14 never happened. That year, the day after Oct. 4 was Oct. 15, and too bad for you if your birthday fell in between.(England didn’t follow suit until 1752, and by then had to drop 11 days, Sept. 3-13; and Russia didn’t lose the extra days until 1918, which is why the “October Revolution” is celebrated in November.)Clavius’ second charge to stop the continued accumulation of days was trickier. He pulled it off by keeping Caesar’s leap years, but tempering them by dropping the extra day at each century marker. Every 100 years, when the century rolled over, the leap year was skipped no Feb. 29.But as with Caesar’s attempt, Clavius’ manipulations overcorrected the problem. And so he added yet one more layer he restored the missing leap years at every fourth century boundary.That’s why there was a Feb. 29, 2000, but will be no Feb. 29, 2100.You might call those every-fourth-century days double-extra-bonus days, and you would be very wise to spend them well, as they come only once every 400 years.The calendar and the whole hind end of February, really was, and remains, a complicated mess, but it’s the only mess we have: Add a day by leap year every four years, remove leap years from century boundaries, and put the leap year back in at centuries divisible by four.Of course, even then we’re still off by 25.96 seconds every year, which means we’ll have to find a way to pick up one extra day every 2,800 years or so.Noodling out how to do just that, in fact, might be a very productive way to spend your extra Friday.Who knows, craft a stylish solution and you, like Caesar, just might get a calendar named after you.
By MICHAEL JAMISON - Missoulian - 02/29/08
Ode to Leap Day - Thirty days hath September, April, June and November. All the rest have 31, save February. That’s the real odd one.KALISPELL — Today is an extra, a bonus, a freebie, like the $5 bill you found in the pocket of that spring coat you hadn’t worn for a year.Spend it well. Because you won’t get another for four more years.This year, 2008, is a leap year, which means February comes with a whole extra day, and a Friday at that.The calendrical convolution that is this last day of the second month of the fourth year is actually the cultural wreckage left behind from a collision between physics and metaphysics.Scientist Stephen Jay Gould unraveled the arcane mathematics of it all in his slim but elegant volume, “Questioning the Millennium: A Rationalist’s Guide to a Precisely Arbitrary Countdown.”
The story begins in the days of Julius Caesar, with the first chapters written in the stars the concepts of days (Earth’s rotation), months (moon’s revolution) and years (Earth’s revolution.)Trouble is, none is an easy multiple of the others, a fact that has plagued calendar makers from the beginning.A year is not, as we conveniently assume, a simple cycle of 365 days. Rather, it’s a cycle of 365 days, five hours, 48 minutes and 45.96768 seconds. In other words, a year is about a quarter of a day too long, and those extra bits tend to pile up after a while.Back in 45 B.C., Julius Caesar absorbed those bits in his Julian calendar by adding a leap year every fourth year an extra day, Feb. 29.His was a closer approximation of celestial reality, but still not quite on the mark. A year was not, unfortunately, exactly 365.25 days long. It was 365.2422 days long.The difference, so seemingly slight, tallies up to about 11 minutes and 14 seconds each year. Caesar, it seems, had overreached.The extra continued to pile up, at the rate of about seven days every 1,000 years.Who cares? Well, pretty much everyone in the Middle Ages. Farmers and astronomers cared, because the additional days meant “fixed” dates such as the spring equinox or the winter solstice kept sliding around the calendar.Priests cared, too, because celebrations such as Easter also meandered through the calendar.By the 16th century, Pope Gregory XIII had had enough. A full 10 days had stacked up, and he decided to put a stop to the problem once and for all.He called on his mathematical adviser, Christopher Clavius, who in 1582 unveiled the Gregorian calendar, which we still use today.Clavius’ first order of business was to clear out those extra days. The pope handled that from the top down: he simply declared that, in 1582, Oct. 5 through 14 never happened. That year, the day after Oct. 4 was Oct. 15, and too bad for you if your birthday fell in between.(England didn’t follow suit until 1752, and by then had to drop 11 days, Sept. 3-13; and Russia didn’t lose the extra days until 1918, which is why the “October Revolution” is celebrated in November.)Clavius’ second charge to stop the continued accumulation of days was trickier. He pulled it off by keeping Caesar’s leap years, but tempering them by dropping the extra day at each century marker. Every 100 years, when the century rolled over, the leap year was skipped no Feb. 29.But as with Caesar’s attempt, Clavius’ manipulations overcorrected the problem. And so he added yet one more layer he restored the missing leap years at every fourth century boundary.That’s why there was a Feb. 29, 2000, but will be no Feb. 29, 2100.You might call those every-fourth-century days double-extra-bonus days, and you would be very wise to spend them well, as they come only once every 400 years.The calendar and the whole hind end of February, really was, and remains, a complicated mess, but it’s the only mess we have: Add a day by leap year every four years, remove leap years from century boundaries, and put the leap year back in at centuries divisible by four.Of course, even then we’re still off by 25.96 seconds every year, which means we’ll have to find a way to pick up one extra day every 2,800 years or so.Noodling out how to do just that, in fact, might be a very productive way to spend your extra Friday.Who knows, craft a stylish solution and you, like Caesar, just might get a calendar named after you.
Katoucha
Body of former top model Katoucha Niane found in the River Seine
Police say body was found Thursday after going missing in January
A subsequent autopsy confirmed it as the model's
Police say the body showed no signs of foul play (it would only take a push)
PARIS, France (AP) -- The body of Katoucha Niane, one of the first African women to attain international stardom as a model and a vocal opponent of female genital mutilation, was found in the Seine River, police said Friday.
The Guinean-born model told The Associated Press in 1994 that she ran away to Europe at 17 aiming to be a model. Her big break came when Jules-Francois Crahay, then the designer at Lanvin, spotted her in a line-up. The label hired her as a fitting model. Her first catwalk modeling was for Thierry Mugler at the start of the 1980s.
After quitting the runway, she turned to speaking out actively against female circumcision, describing her own experience at age 9 in a book, "Katoucha, In My Flesh," which was published last year.
"I will never get the incomparable pain out of my head," she wrote in the book, which she dedicated to her three children.
Katoucha was the daughter of Djibril Tamsir Niane, an archaeologist and writer. She said that her father was initially disappointed that she didn't become "a professional intellectual, with a university degree," but later reconciled to her other successes.
Police say body was found Thursday after going missing in January
A subsequent autopsy confirmed it as the model's
Police say the body showed no signs of foul play (it would only take a push)
PARIS, France (AP) -- The body of Katoucha Niane, one of the first African women to attain international stardom as a model and a vocal opponent of female genital mutilation, was found in the Seine River, police said Friday.
The Guinean-born model told The Associated Press in 1994 that she ran away to Europe at 17 aiming to be a model. Her big break came when Jules-Francois Crahay, then the designer at Lanvin, spotted her in a line-up. The label hired her as a fitting model. Her first catwalk modeling was for Thierry Mugler at the start of the 1980s.
After quitting the runway, she turned to speaking out actively against female circumcision, describing her own experience at age 9 in a book, "Katoucha, In My Flesh," which was published last year.
"I will never get the incomparable pain out of my head," she wrote in the book, which she dedicated to her three children.
Katoucha was the daughter of Djibril Tamsir Niane, an archaeologist and writer. She said that her father was initially disappointed that she didn't become "a professional intellectual, with a university degree," but later reconciled to her other successes.
Feb 27, 2008
Church Corrections
By Christopher and Toni Ries, Robert and Shawn Koellermeier - 02/27/08
In response to the article written by Rob Chaney dated Feb. 19, titled “Frenchtown church still holds Mass in Latin:” We respectfully submit that the Society of Saint Pius X (order of Roman Catholic priests) was founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (1905-91) in Econe, Switzerland, in 1970 with canonical approval.The Archbishop was the former Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers. Pope John XXIII made him an Assistant to the Papal Throne.The Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) bishops, priests and faithful profess filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI (Vicar of Christ and Sovereign Pontiff) and all of the successors of Peter. They accept the entire deposit of Catholic doctrine on faith and morals. The priests of the SSPX pray for the intentions of the Holy Father and the welfare of the Local Ordinary at every Mass they celebrate.The Montana chapels of the SSPX are located in Victor and Kalispell, not in Missoula as the article stated. For more information or clarification on the SSPX you can go to www.sspx.org Thank you.Christopher and Toni Ries110 Norris Road
Robert and Shawn Koellermeier580 Winters LaneStevensville
The Catholic Church likes to appear united, but how many orders are there, many Catholics reject the Church stance since the 60 or 70s when the church tried to mondernize. Maybe the Catholics are as divided as the Protestants?
In response to the article written by Rob Chaney dated Feb. 19, titled “Frenchtown church still holds Mass in Latin:” We respectfully submit that the Society of Saint Pius X (order of Roman Catholic priests) was founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (1905-91) in Econe, Switzerland, in 1970 with canonical approval.The Archbishop was the former Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers. Pope John XXIII made him an Assistant to the Papal Throne.The Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) bishops, priests and faithful profess filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI (Vicar of Christ and Sovereign Pontiff) and all of the successors of Peter. They accept the entire deposit of Catholic doctrine on faith and morals. The priests of the SSPX pray for the intentions of the Holy Father and the welfare of the Local Ordinary at every Mass they celebrate.The Montana chapels of the SSPX are located in Victor and Kalispell, not in Missoula as the article stated. For more information or clarification on the SSPX you can go to www.sspx.org Thank you.Christopher and Toni Ries110 Norris Road
Robert and Shawn Koellermeier580 Winters LaneStevensville
The Catholic Church likes to appear united, but how many orders are there, many Catholics reject the Church stance since the 60 or 70s when the church tried to mondernize. Maybe the Catholics are as divided as the Protestants?
Deer Whistles
Of course the Scientists don't know what they are talking about.
People "swear" they work.:>
EB 1677
Leonard R. Askham
A pair of eyes caught in the headlights. A stab at the brakes. A sickening thud. A deer careens off your car and lies twitching on the side of the road.
Avoidable? Yes and no. Yes, if you slow down and drive cautiously where deer crossing signs are posted or you suspect the animals may be feeding. No, if you rely on animal warning devices called "deer whistles," according to researchers and state police.
Deer whistles, mounted on the fronts of cars, trucks, and motorcycles, allegedly produce ultrasonic frequencies and/or audible sounds from the wind rushing through them. These sounds are supposed to repel or warn animals, particularly deer, elk, moose and dogs, of oncoming vehicles.
The manufacturers claim that two European studies proved that the whistles work. Not so. They were initially tried in Europe about 25 years ago but research did not prove them to be successful. Now they are being sold in the United States with European claims. The study from Finland, which the advertisers refer to, states that from all of the experiments conducted "it was unsure that the animals were not disturbed by the approach itself, so that the whistle sound was the only disturbing factor." The second study from Switzerland concludes that the whistling sound, which is well within the human hearing range, is so weak that it is overlaid by the noise of the moving vehicle. A scientific advisory panel from the World Society for the Protection of Animals states, after extensive review, that there is no known data "that shows that such devices can actually stop an animal crossing the road, which is the main purpose of the device."
Even if the devices were effective, they would soon become clogged with insects and dirt (since they are mounted on the front of the vehicle) and would stop working.
The state police in Ohio, after months of testing, found no significant decrease in patrol car/deer accidents after the warning devices were installed. In fact, more accidents were reported by the officers after the whistles were installed than before for the same period of time and stretches of highway. Tests conducted in Utah, Georgia and Wisconsin also concluded that deer whistles don't work.
The odds are you won't hit a deer. Your best protection is to drive defensively, particularly as the sun sets. This is when most vehicle/deer accidents occur. Slow down when you see one deer. More often another is right behind it.
Until there is some solid evidence, other than personal testimonials, that deer whistles are effective, keep your money in your pocket.
Leonard R. Askham former WSU Associate Professor and Associate Research Scientist, Vertebrate Pest Management, Department of Horticulture and Landscape Architecture.
People "swear" they work.:>
EB 1677
Leonard R. Askham
A pair of eyes caught in the headlights. A stab at the brakes. A sickening thud. A deer careens off your car and lies twitching on the side of the road.
Avoidable? Yes and no. Yes, if you slow down and drive cautiously where deer crossing signs are posted or you suspect the animals may be feeding. No, if you rely on animal warning devices called "deer whistles," according to researchers and state police.
Deer whistles, mounted on the fronts of cars, trucks, and motorcycles, allegedly produce ultrasonic frequencies and/or audible sounds from the wind rushing through them. These sounds are supposed to repel or warn animals, particularly deer, elk, moose and dogs, of oncoming vehicles.
The manufacturers claim that two European studies proved that the whistles work. Not so. They were initially tried in Europe about 25 years ago but research did not prove them to be successful. Now they are being sold in the United States with European claims. The study from Finland, which the advertisers refer to, states that from all of the experiments conducted "it was unsure that the animals were not disturbed by the approach itself, so that the whistle sound was the only disturbing factor." The second study from Switzerland concludes that the whistling sound, which is well within the human hearing range, is so weak that it is overlaid by the noise of the moving vehicle. A scientific advisory panel from the World Society for the Protection of Animals states, after extensive review, that there is no known data "that shows that such devices can actually stop an animal crossing the road, which is the main purpose of the device."
Even if the devices were effective, they would soon become clogged with insects and dirt (since they are mounted on the front of the vehicle) and would stop working.
The state police in Ohio, after months of testing, found no significant decrease in patrol car/deer accidents after the warning devices were installed. In fact, more accidents were reported by the officers after the whistles were installed than before for the same period of time and stretches of highway. Tests conducted in Utah, Georgia and Wisconsin also concluded that deer whistles don't work.
The odds are you won't hit a deer. Your best protection is to drive defensively, particularly as the sun sets. This is when most vehicle/deer accidents occur. Slow down when you see one deer. More often another is right behind it.
Until there is some solid evidence, other than personal testimonials, that deer whistles are effective, keep your money in your pocket.
Leonard R. Askham former WSU Associate Professor and Associate Research Scientist, Vertebrate Pest Management, Department of Horticulture and Landscape Architecture.
Feb 18, 2008
False Converts per Cameron & Comfort
Per the sect "The Way of the Master" set up by the TV star Cameron and a Mr. Comfort
You were never really saved if you reject their ministry. How convenient for them.
Have they gone to seminary or attend a bible college? Doubt it! If so, which ones
I think there are many "christians" that would disagree with their so called theological certainty
But of course the wouldn't be considered true Christians if they disagree with these guys
I would like to hear from the Christians who disagree with this cult’s idea of conversion
Does it take all six or only one of the six to make someone a false converts?
True and False Conversion
The ministry distinguishes between 'true' and 'false' conversions, believing that converts who fall away were never "Born again" to begin with.
The six signs of a false conversion are
They should have examples. This is really very serious if it’s true! There are thousands maybe millions of people who think they are Christian when they are no. They will burn in Hell! OMG this is horrible, isn’t it?;}
1. An immediate result, with impressive changes occurring quickly, but followed by a quick fading away.
Example? Stop doing drugs, going cold turkey?
2. Lack the "life-giving and life-sustaining power of regarding the Bible as "dry and uninteresting."
Example? The list of begets is very tedious
3 False converts have no "roots," foundations into faith and Christian learning, so they "dry up" like a plant with no roots.
Example? A Muslim can’t be a true convert?
4 Come into salvation with joy and gladness at first, but later lose that joy and
Backslide
Example? If you suffer from depression and get bummed out when Christ doesn’t answer your prayers, you are not a Christian.
5 Actually believe for a season, but then end up renouncing that belief.
Example? Season (WTH) what season. Christmas or Easter celebrations?
6? Funny, no 6th one is listed. Maybe only a true Christian can see it on the webpage?
You were never really saved if you reject their ministry. How convenient for them.
Have they gone to seminary or attend a bible college? Doubt it! If so, which ones
I think there are many "christians" that would disagree with their so called theological certainty
But of course the wouldn't be considered true Christians if they disagree with these guys
I would like to hear from the Christians who disagree with this cult’s idea of conversion
Does it take all six or only one of the six to make someone a false converts?
True and False Conversion
The ministry distinguishes between 'true' and 'false' conversions, believing that converts who fall away were never "Born again" to begin with.
The six signs of a false conversion are
They should have examples. This is really very serious if it’s true! There are thousands maybe millions of people who think they are Christian when they are no. They will burn in Hell! OMG this is horrible, isn’t it?;}
1. An immediate result, with impressive changes occurring quickly, but followed by a quick fading away.
Example? Stop doing drugs, going cold turkey?
2. Lack the "life-giving and life-sustaining power of regarding the Bible as "dry and uninteresting."
Example? The list of begets is very tedious
3 False converts have no "roots," foundations into faith and Christian learning, so they "dry up" like a plant with no roots.
Example? A Muslim can’t be a true convert?
4 Come into salvation with joy and gladness at first, but later lose that joy and
Backslide
Example? If you suffer from depression and get bummed out when Christ doesn’t answer your prayers, you are not a Christian.
5 Actually believe for a season, but then end up renouncing that belief.
Example? Season (WTH) what season. Christmas or Easter celebrations?
6? Funny, no 6th one is listed. Maybe only a true Christian can see it on the webpage?
Feb 11, 2008
Feb 8, 2008
N.T. "Tom" Wright & Heaven
This interview only proves to me how screwed up religion is. When, and it will never happen, they can all get together and agree on what a "True Christian" really is, don't bother me.
They wonder why people like me reject everything the clergy preaches. They themselves reject each others interpretations.
There has been alot of talk about Heaven and Hell. Billy Graham says there is no hell and now Tom says there is no heaven. I agree with both of them, but I go one step further and think there is no God either. (the biblical god for sure) Can you really blame me?
2,000 or so years later, still nothing makes sense to anyone.
N.T. "Tom" Wright is one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought. As Bishop of Durham, he is the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England and a major player in the strife-riven global Anglican Communion; as a much-read theologian and Biblical scholar he has taught at Cambridge and is a hero to conservative Christians worldwide for his 2003 book The Resurrection of the Son of God, which argued forcefully for a literal interpretation of that event.
It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different."
Wright, 58, talked by phone with TIME's David Van Biema.
TIME: At one point you call the common view of heaven a "distortion and serious diminution of Christian hope."
Wright: It really is. I've often heard people say, "I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional.
TIME: How so? It seems like a typical sentiment.
Wright: There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. St. Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.
TIME: Is there anything more in the Bible about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead?
Wright: We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says "the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God," and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well.
TIME: But it's not where the real action is, so to speak?
Wright: No. Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I've called the life after life after death — in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will "awake," be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: "God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves." That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom.
TIME: That is rather different from the common understanding. Did some Biblical verse contribute to our confusion?
Wright: There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so "paradise" cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new earth joined together.
TIME: Why, then, have we misread those verses?
Wright: It has, originally, to do with the translation of Jewish ideas into Greek. The New Testament is deeply, deeply Jewish, and the Jews had for some time been intuiting a final, physical resurrection. They believed that the world of space and time and matter is messed up, but remains basically good, and God will eventually sort it out and put it right again. Belief in that goodness is absolutely essential to Christianity, both theologically and morally. But Greek-speaking Christians influenced by Plato saw our cosmos as shabby and misshapen and full of lies, and the idea was not to make it right, but to escape it and leave behind our material bodies. The church at its best has always come back toward the Hebrew view, but there have been times when the Greek view was very influential.
TIME: Can you give some historical examples?
Wright: Two obvious ones are Dante's great poetry, which sets up a Heaven, Purgatory and Hell immediately after death, and Michelangelo's Last Judgment in the Sistine chapel, which portrays heaven and hell as equal and opposite last destinations. Both had enormous influence on Western culture, so much so that many Christians think that is Christianity.
TIME: But it's not.
Wright: Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven. They all say, Jesus is raised, therefore the new creation has begun, and we have a job to do.
TIME: That sounds a lot like... work.
Wright: It's more exciting than hanging around listening to nice music. In Revelation and Paul's letters we are told that God's people will actually be running the new world on God's behalf. The idea of our participation in the new creation goes back to Genesis, when humans are supposed to be running the Garden and looking after the animals. If you transpose that all the way through, it's a picture like the one that you get at the end of Revelation.
TIME: And it ties in to what you've written about this all having a moral dimension.
Wright: Both that, and the idea of bodily resurrection that people deny when they talk about their "souls going to Heaven." If people think "my physical body doesn't matter very much," then who cares what I do with it? And if people think that our world, our cosmos, doesn't matter much, who cares what we do with that? Much of "traditional" Christianity gives the impression that God has these rather arbitrary rules about how you have to behave, and if you disobey them you go to hell, rather than to heaven. What the New Testament really says is God wants you to be a renewed human being helping him to renew his creation, and his resurrection was the opening bell. And when he returns to fulfil the plan, you won't be going up there to him, he'll be coming down here.
TIME: That's very different from, say, the vision put out in the Left Behind books.
Wright: Yes. If there's going to be an Armageddon, and we'll all be in heaven already or raptured up just in time, it really doesn't matter if you have acid rain or greenhouse gases prior to that. Or, for that matter, whether you bombed civilians in Iraq. All that really matters is saving souls for that disembodied heaven.
TIME: Has anyone you've talked to expressed disappointment at the loss of the old view?
Wright: Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?"
They wonder why people like me reject everything the clergy preaches. They themselves reject each others interpretations.
There has been alot of talk about Heaven and Hell. Billy Graham says there is no hell and now Tom says there is no heaven. I agree with both of them, but I go one step further and think there is no God either. (the biblical god for sure) Can you really blame me?
2,000 or so years later, still nothing makes sense to anyone.
N.T. "Tom" Wright is one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought. As Bishop of Durham, he is the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England and a major player in the strife-riven global Anglican Communion; as a much-read theologian and Biblical scholar he has taught at Cambridge and is a hero to conservative Christians worldwide for his 2003 book The Resurrection of the Son of God, which argued forcefully for a literal interpretation of that event.
It therefore comes as a something of a shock that Wright doesn't believe in heaven — at least, not in the way that millions of Christians understand the term. In his new book, Surprised by Hope (HarperOne), Wright quotes a children's book by California first lady Maria Shriver called What's Heaven, which describes it as "a beautiful place where you can sit on soft clouds and talk... If you're good throughout your life, then you get to go [there]... When your life is finished here on earth, God sends angels down to take you heaven to be with him." That, says Wright is a good example of "what not to say." The Biblical truth, he continues, "is very, very different."
Wright, 58, talked by phone with TIME's David Van Biema.
TIME: At one point you call the common view of heaven a "distortion and serious diminution of Christian hope."
Wright: It really is. I've often heard people say, "I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional.
TIME: How so? It seems like a typical sentiment.
Wright: There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. St. Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.
TIME: Is there anything more in the Bible about the period between death and the resurrection of the dead?
Wright: We know that we will be with God and with Christ, resting and being refreshed. Paul writes that it will be conscious, but compared with being bodily alive, it will be like being asleep. The Wisdom of Solomon, a Jewish text from about the same time as Jesus, says "the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God," and that seems like a poetic way to put the Christian understanding, as well.
TIME: But it's not where the real action is, so to speak?
Wright: No. Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I've called the life after life after death — in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will "awake," be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: "God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves." That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom.
TIME: That is rather different from the common understanding. Did some Biblical verse contribute to our confusion?
Wright: There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so "paradise" cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it's describing the worship that's going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don't have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new earth joined together.
TIME: Why, then, have we misread those verses?
Wright: It has, originally, to do with the translation of Jewish ideas into Greek. The New Testament is deeply, deeply Jewish, and the Jews had for some time been intuiting a final, physical resurrection. They believed that the world of space and time and matter is messed up, but remains basically good, and God will eventually sort it out and put it right again. Belief in that goodness is absolutely essential to Christianity, both theologically and morally. But Greek-speaking Christians influenced by Plato saw our cosmos as shabby and misshapen and full of lies, and the idea was not to make it right, but to escape it and leave behind our material bodies. The church at its best has always come back toward the Hebrew view, but there have been times when the Greek view was very influential.
TIME: Can you give some historical examples?
Wright: Two obvious ones are Dante's great poetry, which sets up a Heaven, Purgatory and Hell immediately after death, and Michelangelo's Last Judgment in the Sistine chapel, which portrays heaven and hell as equal and opposite last destinations. Both had enormous influence on Western culture, so much so that many Christians think that is Christianity.
TIME: But it's not.
Wright: Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven. They all say, Jesus is raised, therefore the new creation has begun, and we have a job to do.
TIME: That sounds a lot like... work.
Wright: It's more exciting than hanging around listening to nice music. In Revelation and Paul's letters we are told that God's people will actually be running the new world on God's behalf. The idea of our participation in the new creation goes back to Genesis, when humans are supposed to be running the Garden and looking after the animals. If you transpose that all the way through, it's a picture like the one that you get at the end of Revelation.
TIME: And it ties in to what you've written about this all having a moral dimension.
Wright: Both that, and the idea of bodily resurrection that people deny when they talk about their "souls going to Heaven." If people think "my physical body doesn't matter very much," then who cares what I do with it? And if people think that our world, our cosmos, doesn't matter much, who cares what we do with that? Much of "traditional" Christianity gives the impression that God has these rather arbitrary rules about how you have to behave, and if you disobey them you go to hell, rather than to heaven. What the New Testament really says is God wants you to be a renewed human being helping him to renew his creation, and his resurrection was the opening bell. And when he returns to fulfil the plan, you won't be going up there to him, he'll be coming down here.
TIME: That's very different from, say, the vision put out in the Left Behind books.
Wright: Yes. If there's going to be an Armageddon, and we'll all be in heaven already or raptured up just in time, it really doesn't matter if you have acid rain or greenhouse gases prior to that. Or, for that matter, whether you bombed civilians in Iraq. All that really matters is saving souls for that disembodied heaven.
TIME: Has anyone you've talked to expressed disappointment at the loss of the old view?
Wright: Yes, you might get disappointment in the case where somebody has recently gone through the death of somebody they love and they are wanting simply to be with them. And I'd say that's understandable. But the end of Revelation describes a marvelous human participation in God's plan. And in almost all cases, when I've explained this to people, there's a sense of excitement and a sense of, "Why haven't we been told this before?"
Feb 7, 2008
Claptrap
It is very sad and horrible to read about the 55 dead due to tornadoes.
Then I get mad and disgusted with the usual claptrap in the news reports
claptrap
n : pompous or pretentious talk or writing [syn: bombast, fustian,
rant, blah]
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) Claptrap \Clap"trap`\, n.
1. A contrivance for clapping in theaters. [Obs.]
2. A trick or device to gain applause; humbug.Claptrap \Clap"trap`\, a.
Contrived for the purpose of making a show, or gaining
applause; deceptive; unreal.
1. "It looks like the Lord took a Brillo pad and scrubbed the ground,” said Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen, who surveyed the damage from a helicopter.
Is Phil saying God did this? and why?
2. President Bush gave assurances his administration stood ready to help. Teams from the Federal Emergency Management Agency were sent to the region and activated an emergency center in Georgia.“Loss of life, loss of property; prayers can help, and so can the government,” Bush said. “I do want the people in those states to know the American people are standing with them.”
Ok, George! which God? again why? for whom? The dead? the injured? to ask God to stop it!? To ask for forgivness for whatever they the victoms did to deserve this? "prayers can help"? What does that mean? Help who? More claptrap from our pious president.
3. Near St. Vincent, Ark., Shannon Barnes said he, his mother and her husband took shelter in her basement. But the wind pulled the door open and nearly sucked them out.“We prayed to Jesus. We prayed. That’s why we’re here,” Barnes said. “There ain’t much more to say than that.”
This bugs me the most. Is Shannon is implying God did not hear or ignored those who prayed and died anyway?
Then I get mad and disgusted with the usual claptrap in the news reports
claptrap
n : pompous or pretentious talk or writing [syn: bombast, fustian,
rant, blah]
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) Claptrap \Clap"trap`\, n.
1. A contrivance for clapping in theaters. [Obs.]
2. A trick or device to gain applause; humbug.Claptrap \Clap"trap`\, a.
Contrived for the purpose of making a show, or gaining
applause; deceptive; unreal.
1. "It looks like the Lord took a Brillo pad and scrubbed the ground,” said Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen, who surveyed the damage from a helicopter.
Is Phil saying God did this? and why?
2. President Bush gave assurances his administration stood ready to help. Teams from the Federal Emergency Management Agency were sent to the region and activated an emergency center in Georgia.“Loss of life, loss of property; prayers can help, and so can the government,” Bush said. “I do want the people in those states to know the American people are standing with them.”
Ok, George! which God? again why? for whom? The dead? the injured? to ask God to stop it!? To ask for forgivness for whatever they the victoms did to deserve this? "prayers can help"? What does that mean? Help who? More claptrap from our pious president.
3. Near St. Vincent, Ark., Shannon Barnes said he, his mother and her husband took shelter in her basement. But the wind pulled the door open and nearly sucked them out.“We prayed to Jesus. We prayed. That’s why we’re here,” Barnes said. “There ain’t much more to say than that.”
This bugs me the most. Is Shannon is implying God did not hear or ignored those who prayed and died anyway?
Feb 5, 2008
Westboro Sued
BALTIMORE - A federal judge has reduced by more than half the amount of damages that a fundamentalist Kansas church must pay to the father of a Marine who was killed in Iraq.
The Westboro Baptist Church and three of its members, who picket military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality, must pay Albert Snyder damages of $5 million for emotional distress and invasion of privacy, U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett ruled Monday. The original jury award in October was $10.9 million.
Bennett's ruling cited the need to weigh any harm Snyder suffered against the financial resources of the church.
Snyder sued the Topeka, Kan., church after a 2006 demonstration at the Maryland funeral of his son, Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder. He claimed the demonstration intruded upon what should have been a private ceremony and sullied his memory of the event.
A jury agreed, and in October found the church and three of its leaders — Fred Phelps and his two daughters, Shirley Phelps-Roper and Rebekah Phelps-Davis — liable for invasion of privacy and intent to inflict emotional distress.
The church's appeal of the verdict is still pending.
The Westboro Baptist Church and three of its members, who picket military funerals out of a belief that the war in Iraq is a punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality, must pay Albert Snyder damages of $5 million for emotional distress and invasion of privacy, U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett ruled Monday. The original jury award in October was $10.9 million.
Bennett's ruling cited the need to weigh any harm Snyder suffered against the financial resources of the church.
Snyder sued the Topeka, Kan., church after a 2006 demonstration at the Maryland funeral of his son, Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder. He claimed the demonstration intruded upon what should have been a private ceremony and sullied his memory of the event.
A jury agreed, and in October found the church and three of its leaders — Fred Phelps and his two daughters, Shirley Phelps-Roper and Rebekah Phelps-Davis — liable for invasion of privacy and intent to inflict emotional distress.
The church's appeal of the verdict is still pending.
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