Disclaimer: This is not to be taken as an insult to the Shayook.*
Most Western Muslim converts (at least the ones I know), tend to take their religion very serious. We want to get it right. Often times we will ask questions to the scholars that makes it difficult to answer – because they are coming from a totally different environment. Once upon a time, these special type of questions were put to the da’ees in our communities. Now that most of them have lost the respect and authority they once had in our communities; and we have been told that there are no scholars in the West; these western type questions are asked to scholars from the Muslim world. Who sometimes just don’t get it. I ran across this fatwa a moment ago and had to do a double take:
Question: If a person has a sexually transmitted disease that cannot be cured, and she is married can her husband take another wife?
Answer: It is upon the Muslim to marry the women that he is pleased with. Allaah تبارك وتعالى said:
فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ
{…then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four…} [an-Nisaa’ 4:3]
So there is no harm for him in doing so, even if his first wife has a disease or is sick. It is not incumbent upon him to let his second wife know the state of his first wife. If it is feared that the second wife may contract the disease from the first wife, then the solution will be to keep the second wife away from the first wife. This is the solution to this situation. However, as a reason for him to be prohibited from taking another wife, then no, because it is Allaah تعالى who has permitted him to take other wives as in His saying:
فَانكِحُواْ مَا طَابَ لَكُم مِّنَ النِّسَاءِ مَثْنَى وَثُلاَثَ وَرُبَاعَ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ فَوَاحِدَةً أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ
{…then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess…} [an-Nisaa’ 4:3]
I don’t think the Shaykh understands exactly how a sexually transmitted disease is transmitted. Keeping the wives away from each other is NOT the solution. I think that there should be no shame in the translators clarifying this to all those who heard or read this fatwa.This indeed is a dangerous fatwa, because the Shaykh did not understand the implications of his ruling. Now brothers who know full well how STDs are transmitted, will play the role like they got a fatwa saying that as long as his wives are separated, it’s all good. Either the nature of STDs should have been properly explained to the Shaykh, once it was clear that he obviously had no idea what an STD was and how it is spread or the brothers in charge of translating this, should have explained that the Shaykh may have not completely understod the question and that this answer should be reconsidered in light of that.
This question, reminds me of another question asked to a Shaykh about the use of Adult Toys between the Spouses. After translating the question and answer, the translator added as a footnote:
This was a difficult question to translate, and even after our translation of the question with additional details added, the shaykh was still not sure exactly what was being asked about! May Allaah reward him generously for his patience.
I understand the need to ask, ‘those who know’, but do we realise that there are different types of knowledge and just because one is a learned Islamic scholar doesn’t make them ‘in the know’ to these types of questions. With that said, where do you go to get a Ghetto Fatwa?
*If anything, it is a testament to the virtues of living in the Muslim world, where vices are not so wide spread that these types of questions are common. If we posed this question to a celibate priest in the West, he would know exactly what was meant (minus the Islamic conditions). However, despite a Shaykh having several wives and a dozen children , this type of concern is unheard of walhamduillah.
Get Fit Clinique
Jan 08, 2008 @ 05:46:38
This is so true.Alot of times people even ask a question a certain way so they can get a certain answer.I have been trying to get my custody question answered for months but no one is getting back to me.My ex husband said he asked a sheikh who has more right to the child the parent in Darul-kufr or the one making hijra.He says the sheikh says the one making hijra has more right even if the woman isn’t remarried.I dont know how the question was asked to him or what he said regarding my chracter so I want clarification plus my son is young(2 years) and then he goes to say if he does make hijra it isn’t on him totake care of the kids he leaves behind in darul-kufr.I just dont believe that at all.aif you ask a question a certain way you will get that answer.Please make du’a for me Ummadam.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 07:04:34
even if this is what islam says, which yur not sure of, a caring father, even if he was divorced, would WANT to take care of their child financially, REGARDLESS of if Islam requires it or not.
I find it interesting how some people don’t understand that just being NICE and SWEET and CARING and doing GOOD to others, is also part of Islam :-)!! It’s like there HAS to be a hadith specifically that tells them that you have to say ‘thankyou’ or ‘please’ otherwise, it won’t be ‘required’ of them lol.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 07:20:18
ummadam..u know that after this post yur gona be labeled as someone who slanders the scholars and doesn’t respect them and other lies right :-)?
on a different note…
i kinda think at some level .. for those people who got turned off of islam because of extremists like these..i guess its only their own fault at some level. why did they stop using their brain and their common sense? why did they give ignorant people the AUTHORITY to tell THEM what to do. Why didn’t they THINK for themselves?
Why? Why? Why? Why did soo many people get duped into thinking there ARE NO SCHOLARS in the west. This is ridiculous.
I’m just really curious about the thought process that went on inside so many people’s heads.
Also, I read part of that link ummadam..that one of your commenters gave..and it included you standing up for someone known as labeeba and umm something. and subhanallah after i was reading it..i was like dude..this is giving me a headache. like WHY did this happen? Why did people think .. ORDINARY people..that they had to give EXPLANATIONS ‘clearing’ themselves..its out of this world. I mean why did they think that had to ‘clear their name’ with x, y and z. Didn’t they think…’who is this person to judge me?’
and when did we ever read about sahaba ‘clearing themselves’ over MINOR issues?
i mean these people talked about ‘taking from scholars’, and not blind following, yet they had their SET list of scholars that were legit and EVERYONE was off the path. or if someone talked of a fourth part to tawheed, they were making bid’a.
I remember I read this refutation against ali tamimi once that he talked about the right of Allah to rule or something..apparnetly maududi mentioned it too…and like this person was talking bad about ali T cuz he came up with this ‘new’ thing. like as if the prophet sat there and taught people the taweheed uloohiya..ruboobiya and asma wal sifat…i was like wow these people nitpick. I hadn’t seen big time scholars write like this. and the TYPE of insults they would hurl at each other. it was as if this was a ISLAMIC gang. like ‘ the slap in the face of abu so and so’ . like excuse me? scholars in the past wrote thing like ‘ they were happy if their opponent was right ‘ but these people seemed to be HIGH on proving someone wrong, or trying at least, and just seemed like they realy wanted a fight. interesting thing is…it seems like majority of the people in this whole thing were converts. which subhanallah shows us how important arabic is.
these type of people would come on certain forums and if there was a debate on niqab, they would just completely go ballistic, as if the ONLY opinion and the only right one period is that niqab is fardh and that the other opinion is complete batil. so if a person comes with the other opinion and they believe that, khalas they are deviant. its like u HAD to take this person’s opinion. you couldn’t defintely be ‘salafi’ in their eyes unless you wore, dressed, talked, ate a certain way. u HAD to think voting was haram. etc etc. there was no concept of LEGITIMATE difference of opinion. If one scholar said one ‘mistaken’ opinion, he was DEVIANT, even though the hadith says not to follow the scholar in the mistake, not to write him off.
alhamdulillah i never got into it but i’ve alhamdulillah seen and read quite a bit from a distance and just been thankful that i never had to deal with stuff like this.
ok i dont know why i went on a tangent about all this. it just angers me i guess that so many Muslims gave wackos the right to lead them, the right to determine for them right from wrong etc. why in the world did sisters marry these type of people only to be left with kids they had to raise on their own. why why why. its just sad.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 07:40:27
Assalaamu alaykum!
Yes, it does seem from the response the Shaykh may not have understood the question properly or what a sexually-transmitted disease actually is.
I have also seen conflicting fataawa, where it is deemed impermissible to marry someone with a STD and again by the response I surmised that the Shaykh did not understand exactly what an STD is or that there are different types of STDs – some curable and some not; some of which are dangerous especially if medical help is not sought (like Syphillis). One which comes to mind is Herpes. The stigma only being that one type is below the belt and one is above – it is quite acceptable to have the type typically found in the mouth region (type I) but unacceptable to have the one found in the genital region (type II); the two are almost genetically the same but to admit to having genital herpes is akin to committing social suicide. Another sad thing is, is that most peple who have an STD don’t not even know they have it – and more people have them than one would realise. All the talk about thrush aka “yeast infection” spreading between spouses and co-wives can in more than a few cases be a misdiagnosis of another problem (such as Gonorrhea, HPV or Herpes). Unless you ask to be specifically tested for a particular type of STD then the regular test may not screen for it. And there is no such thing as “safe sex” only ‘safer’ sex – the only safe sex is no sex as even virgins can have thrush or even herpes (type I) in the genital region (from putting their own saliva – perhaps as a lubricant- in their genital region). I fully support education (as prevention) about this issue to erase misconceptions. Although it seems to be so common, having an STD is the modern-day equivalent of being a leper. OK, that’s my lecture for the day finished LOL – I took ‘Human Sexuality’ and ‘HIV/AIDS in Society’ at university 😛
Umm Adam, you said, “this type of concern is unheard of walhamduillah” – I agree with you. I am positive (and sure everyone will agree) that the Shaykh dealt with it in the best way with the knowledge he did have. Unfortunately we can see these types of issues coming up more frequently and they must be dealt with (in a wise and kind manner) and with full knowledge of the condition. I’m sure we all understand that the Shayook are not medical experts but perhaps it would be better if some questions be answered later after an expert’s opinion (in that field) is sought. Although Islam is being ‘attacked’ by the modern world at least we can deal with it in an informed and Islamic way. Btw, non-Muslims just laugh at us when we say that we don’t have these types of problems in our community; it just makes us look like we are liars or we are ignorant.
I’m glad that at least the questions are being asked and the problems are being known about. It is ignorant and harmful to pretend that the issue of STDs and other illnesses (such as mental illness) don’t exist. I really do applaud the people who admit to future spouses that they do have a problem, be it an STD (or mental illness – I know brothers who have them and don’t tell future spouses), so they shouldn’t then be stigmatized or compartmentalized (i.e. they *must* be promiscuous) for being honest. I had a friend at high school who got an STD the first time she had sex with her boyfriend (it was Herpes) and another who got pregnant the first time; and two others who transmitted it from their spouses (one Herpes and another Gonorrhea) after years of marriage.
Thanks for posting!
May Allah help you Sister Hasnah.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 12:51:23
bismillah
as salaamu alaikum
some of the shaykhs are aware of this issue. i dont know where u got this fatwa but the fatwa i heard consisted of the shaykh saying this was not permissible and he used the staement of the prophet roughly tranlted to mean ” there is no harm nor reciprication of harm.” also of course the shaykhs wont have knowledge of every affair going on in this whole dunya and this is not an insult acknowledging that some of the shuyook may not know affairs pertaining to this dunya such as certain diseases and how they are transmitted so it is 1. upon the questioner to be VERY clear in the question and 2 the same for the translator. a bro in madina advised us to be very clear in the questions we pose to the ulemaa and we can see why.so if a person has a question that will affect thier life then it is imperitave that they be very detailed and clear and in your case,hasnah, u should be very detailed and u and ur ex should both contact the same shaykh and explain the whole affair barkalaahu feekum may Allah assist you.
always red and whoever else can answer
pls inform me what scholar there is in the west barakalaahu feekum.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 15:26:18
Hasna, I ask that Allah rectify your affairs and give you and your family good in this life and the next…Allahuma aameen. It’s interesting that you mention your case. In the Q&A session that I got the above fatwa from, there was also a question similar to your concern.
Question: A sister’s ex-husband does not pray and never prayed in their entire married life. She has two daughters with him and he forbids them to pray and instead teaches them bad manners like celebrating the birthdays. She is now re-married and would like to make hijrah but is not yet able to do so. What is best for her and her husband to do? Should she fight for her daughters until she has custody?
Answer: If this woman and her husband are able to practice their religion and show (manifest) the religion then maybe in their staying she will be able to free her two daughters from this bad man, in this case staying would be better for them. However, if the opposite is feared i.e. she fears fitnah for herself and her husband in staying, then it is better for them to make hijrah and Allaah تعالى will take care of her two daughters Inshaa Allaahu تعالى.
By Shaykh ‘Abdur-Rahmaan Al-‘Ajlaan حفظه الله
on Thursday, December 14th, 2006
Alwaysred, I was very careful with my wording and ensuring that all due respect was given to the Schlars in this post. I don’t think that anyone would be able to say that I made a negative post aganst the scholars. As far as scholars being in the west, it is my understanding that in the west are many Students of Knowledge and callers to Islam, but not full fledged bonafide Scholars wa Allahu Alim.
Aliyah, you said it much more eloquent than I ever could, masha’Allah. I also took ‘Human Sexuality’ in University. I had it both as a science course and a Psychology course. I often diagnoised many of my friends with various STDs and mental disorders. They would come to be before going to the clinic and then only go to the Clinic for confirmation and medication! I do not think they even classify Herpes as simplex I or II anymore. I believe this is because the simplexI (oral) can be mistaken for simplexII due to oral sex and vice versa. In other words, you can have a cold sore (Herpes SmplexI)on your mouth and pass it on to the genital region. Also you can have simplex II on your genital region and pass it on to someone’s mouth, which would be mistaken for a cold sore (simplex I). So now I believe they make no distinction.
I have a lot of respect for those who inform potential spouses of any ailments they have physical or mental. We once had a sister interested in joining our family inform me that she has a very high libido which causes her to have to take special medicatio to control her urges, that she is clinicaly depressed, sweats so bad that it causes fungus infections in any enclosed areas of her body (specifully under her breast), was molested as a child, and a host of other issues. I had to be straight with the sister and tell her that my husband is the LAST person she should be married to, as he can not understand oridinary women issues, let alone someone with special cases. She was so sad and adament that she just wanted someone to love her and treat her good and I knew that my husband would never be able to handle her and he would have made her MY problem. When I informed him of her issues – he was horrified. All I can say is alhamduillah that she was honest about these issues.
Another thing I would like to clarify. I am not sayting that there ae no vices in the Muslim world. I am quite sure that STDs exist, but along side with ignorance, so many people may not even know what they have. My point was that it is not rampant, as in the West. In the West you can be as I said, a celibate Priest, Nun, or just a really good person and still have knowledge of all the vices because they are open. Here the vices are not as open and there is no ‘sex education’, so many people don’t know what even the innocent in the West may have known. I have been an avid reader since I was about 4 years old. By the time I was in 4th grade i had read my first grown up book and had gone through all of V.C Andrews ‘Flowers In The Attic’ Series. In 6th grade I was a sex expert! Not that I had sex, but I knew everything there was to know about sex, because my mother had a book called just that, “Everything You Alays Wanted To Know About Sex But Was Afriad To Ask.” I thought I was something esle knowing big words like ‘conolingus’ and ‘Falatio’ at that age! It is less likely that my children will be exposed to this type of information here at a young age, as I were in the West.
PhlliSalafi,
Jazakallahu khayr. That was good advice for Hasna. As I mentioned to Hasna, The Q&A were from a Question & Answer Session By Shaykh ‘Abdur-Rahmaan Al-‘Ajlaan.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 17:13:02
As Salaamu Alaikum All;
I , too, agree with Philly Salafi about being specific with questions put to the shuyook. It’s similar to a person going to a doctor: IF you don’t tell the practitioner/specialist ALL of your symptoms, observations, etc., the person may misdiagnose your condition and give the wrong medication or advise surgery where none is needed! So, if you pose a question to the scholar and leave out some detail that may seem inconsequential or even one that you’re embarrassed about, the scholar can only advise you on what you reveal. How can one expect a fatwah to be accurate if the information one gives is not accurate?
As for the STD fataawah, I have not personally heard or read any. But I would wonder about a fatwah that denies people with incurrable, but not fatal (like herpes) STD’s the blessing of marrying. A WHOOOOLE lot of people would be forced into celibacy….millions! And that’s just the ones who KNOW they have an STD. Can anyone share a link to any scholars who’ve made this type of fatwah?
(ummadam: Check your spelling, sweetie!)
Jan 08, 2008 @ 17:59:41
Look here Miss Liberian and Spelling Bee Champ…some of us don’t have time to use spell check! lol Anyway, if you are referring to the two words I think you are and not to the obvious typos, they were intentionally misspelled. I have to keep the pervs from googling up my blog. I just came from my spam box and found that this very post has been linked to an ‘a_dult T-y’ site, because I mentioned that term earlier.
As for people with STDs marrying, I disagree with you. Most of the questions I read are about polygyny. Polygyny is a different story, because it will effect more than just the husband and one wife. Also there are many couples with STDs, that don’t mind. I knew a sister who knowingly married a couple with herpes and later divorced him on the same grounds. You must admit that if the current wife does not have an STD and the prospective one does, she should at least have the option to have a khula…
Jan 08, 2008 @ 19:05:07
philly salafi have you heard of Waleed Basyouni and Sheikh Salah? There used to also be sheikh jaafar idris but he left. These are just the ones among others that I was more familiar with. Alot of the mahad shuyookh from virginia left a few years ago. Sheikh Salah is much more knowledgeable than Waleed Basyouni, but because he is harder to contact, my hubby had asked him who to contact to ask questions and if waleed basyouni was ok. And he approved of Waleed Basyouni mash’allah.
However, the sad thing is that alot of these scholars were ‘put off the list’ by salafis, from what I heard.
Only a handful of people in the whole world made it 🙂
Because apparently only those were ‘infallible’ and everyone else was judged on their statements.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 19:14:31
I asked one of my main teachers once, a saudi students of knowledge(super knowledgeable mash’allah)about what we say about Sheikh Qaradai.
He didnt throw out any labels. he didnt say he’s deviant or that we don’t take from him or any such thing. He simply said we take his good and leave his bad just like with any other person. And that is subhanallah the truth. Because in reality sheikh qaradawi has amazing work against secularism. So everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and we don’t need to follow anyone blindly.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 22:20:12
LOL @ ghetto fatawa! That was too funny. But you know what? You are so right. I won’t regurgitate what your previous commentors said but yeah, that is a problem and not with the scholar as much with how the question is framed.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 22:31:59
I do think its a responsibility on the questioner to clarify. However, I also think that anyone in today’s day and age, especially a scholar, should realize the huge responsibility they have, and should not give a fatwa before being crystal clear. They should be questioning the questioner.
Jan 08, 2008 @ 23:27:42
Am I the only one sitting here with a puzzled look on her face? I just don’t get it… who needs fatwa on such issues when we have our God-given common sense?
If a couple who is married has an incurable STD they share, it should be made clear to any woman interested in entering the marriage so she can choose to or not knowing the risk. Personally, I can’t understand anyone willing to catch a disease for the sake of being married… but to each her own.
If a single woman has an incurable STD and a married man is interested in marrying her… he shouldn’t be allowed to if his existing wife wont consent to sharing the disease. What the heck?! I have seen these questions floating around the web… people looking for fatwa’s when common sense is in order.
I actually can’t believe that these types of discussions are had. I mean, if I were a scholar and this question came to me I would probably want to smack someone in the back of the head…
Hopefully that didn’t offend anyone.
Tru3
Jan 09, 2008 @ 03:28:06
disguisting… it is really sad that some folks are not informed of REAL social, economic, and health issues and are yet giving advice on how people should live “islamic” lives. I wouldn’t know what I would do if my husband really bought the STD answer. I’d be more concern for my own mental health, than his own… a part of me would just die, they’d have to take me to rehab… for my husband to be that so selfish? so (forgive me Lord if I am wrong for saying this) dumb???
and..
Please excuse me for going WAYYY off topic but I am really curious to know because I was thinking about your blog today and how you made hijrah. My question UmmAdam is what is your relationship with the USA now, particularly your children? I know that the USA has a lot of bad things to offer, but it has a lot of good things as well… such as medicine and education. I believe that only one of your kids were born in the USA, and the others were not. Do you intend on requesting some sort of dual citizenship for your children, just in case you come into a situation where the USA is really your best option? Also, aren’t your children not considered citizens of Saudi and even the Arab country which they were born (one wasn’t born in the USA and neither SAudi, right?)? From what I have always heard it is very hard to get citizenship in Arab countries…. generations living in country’s and never legally considered a citizen, just some sort of residents.
The fact that you have made hijrah already proves that you and I are different when it comes to our comfort zone in the US… but I couldn’t ever imagine, even if I moved, to cut off the good opportunities [that the US can offer] from my children, especially since their mother is a citizen they have a right to this.
Like, are you going to tell your (born in the USA) child her social security number? Give your children the information they may need just in case they decide to go to the US, whether it’s for education, traveling, or even living?
I’m really sorry if these questions offend you, but I have always wanted to ask people who leave the US because they feel it’s not good for them as Muslims. I’ve gone over seas before and was surrounded by women who claimed to being making hijrah, and who had already had children in their new countries, which i know for sure that the parents were not citizens of, and from my own info (yet I am not sure how accurate) there children aren’t as well.
LOL, this truly shows how American I am…. almost being horrified if someone does not make sure that their kids have citizenship! (but ::shrugs:: whatever floats your boat).
Salaam
Jan 09, 2008 @ 04:06:32
Umm Adam posted:
*If anything, it is a testament to the virtues of living in the Muslim world, where vices are not so wide spread that these types of questions are common.
Alhamdulillah that the Muslims practicing their deen in the Middle East don’t find the need to ask these types of questions so frequently. But, many in the Muslim world have the same issues as others … they just don’t talk about it. HIV and substance abuse are HUGE issues in the Muslim world … but they aren’t talked about or asked about to the scholars. Some people don’t want to uncover behaviors which result in STDs, HIV, addiction, etc. SHAME KILLS!
Vices ARE widespread; they’re just not displayed before the whole world in a shameless manner like they are over here in the USA, for example (or Europe, wherever).
Jan 09, 2008 @ 04:16:12
thinkingitover…I plan to go overseas insha’llah so perhaps my answers might satiate some of your curiosity as well 🙂
Planning to live overseas does not necessarily mean you plan on ‘cutting off your kids’ from the good things of the USA. There is no doubt that each country has good to offer. As for while yur raising kids there, it is easier to instill good morals there(i know cuz i’ve lived in both the USA and back home in my growing years and the level of haya for instances that the society can help preserve is really amazing subhanallah).
But when it comes to education, if they have a good opportunity to study in the US, I wouldn’t be against it and neither is Islam by the way. For those scholars who think its not permissible to reside in the USA(and im not one of them), they still make some exceptions like for dawah purposes, for medical treatment and getting education. However, there are in the Muslim world decent universities so not everyone would have to go the route of sending their kids overseas not to mention that not everyone can sometimes afford that or simply don’t have the opportunity.
As for telling your kids their social security number, who tells their 5 or 7 year old their social security number? lol.
By the way, I get the feeling that you haven’t travelled overseas extensively because believe me when you go overseas, you do realize that the USA is just one country AMONGst the countries of the world. It does not offer all the answers to humanity and it isn’t so horrific if people don’t have American citizenship:-)
My sister has US citizenship and my brother in law does not and he refused to get it 🙂 Him and my sister are content with living in Pakistan and rather enjoy it. So to each their own 🙂
I asked my own aunt who is a college professor and head of her Chemistry department, whose visited the US a few times, if she’d like to move here. She’s like nope. My own mother whose been here for ages and has a good position as a computer programmer/anaylist wants to go back! Why you may ask? Well because back home there’s certain things that the US and the west doesn’t provide that easily. Like relationships, quality of life, maids(:-) ). Older people have so much help there. They don’t need to pay thousands of dollars for ensure that IF they get sick later on in life, they’d have care. and even then, if they estimated wrong and their care takes more years, they could literaly go bankrupt. These things don’t exist back home. Normally(not evveryone) you have family to take you in. KIDS ACTUALY take care of their parents..something not common in the US.
anyone..i kinda went off on a tangent cuz i feel like sometimes we can have a very ethnocentric view of life, where we feel like the US is superior to every other country..and its really not when you go overseas. Yu’d see how europeans and the rest of the world think that americans are full of it and arrogant and have the audacity to tell other countries how to live their lives.
Just the other day, the security guy who works in our building(he was a journalist by the way) told me how if the US doesnt like hamburger, then it HAS TO be that it must be no good. they wana dictate things to the rest of the world.
anyyyyway…i guess i just had to get all that off my chest. i get the feeling i should be posting all this on my blog instead 🙂 lol
Jan 09, 2008 @ 05:26:48
Alwaysred,
Thank you for your insight. I do want you to know that I don’t think that the USA provides all of the answers to life and that for many people the USA is not where they desire to live for the rest of their lives. I can definitely imagine that.
The US has great technology, gives a pretty fair oppurtunity of education, and is really good in medicine. What I am concern about is not the “comforts of life” (living in a big house, having maids [by the ways maids have their own lives, besides just cleaning up after people— i feel the need to point that out because too often people in the East gloat over having maids, as if their lives are the only ones that matters in society]), but the real issues in it (health, education, and oppurtunity).
I am just concerned over the legal citizenship of children born overseas to Americans.
I guess you can say that my real fear is Americans making “hijrah” and not taking care of what [i believe] they should. Many of these Americans are going to developing, if not third world, countries where often the government is not even stable. On top of that citizenship is really HARD to get.
To be considered to be granted citizenship in Saudi, you must have lived there, permanently, for at least 10 years! And you must be a professional in an area that the “country needs”. And a naturalized citizen can be stripped of their citizenship within 10 years of being granted citizenship (so that’s 20 years of having an immigration issue hanging over your head)
I’m afraid of people neglecting their children’s legal rights, in hopes of finding a home somewhere else.
Sure a young kid doesn’t need to know their s.s. (i think i learned mine no earlier than the age of 14!) but what happens when they grow up?
It’s tough, and I don’t believe that as long as her son is not a citizen he will have the same rights his classmate who may be.
KSA doesn’t even allow dual citizenship anyway, so eventually they will have to give up their U.S. citizenship— but that’s if they ever are granted citizenship (legal foreign workers have worked for years there and still don’t have it).
Sure, hijrah is not easy.
But I think that if you are moving from one country where you are a citizen to another where you are not, and your children aren’t!, you should take precaution.
I hope that UmmAdam has taken precaution and as for now has at least made sure her children have citizenship somewhere (which should be the U.S. unless they got automatic citizenship somewhere else) and will inform her children about all of this when they are of age.
I would hate for someone to be living in a fantasy where their only excuse is “struggling is a part of hijrah” when they are really struggling (I am not speaking of UmmAdam specifically, I don’t know her conditions!)
I don’t mean to tell anyone how to raise their children. It’s just something that I am concerned about and would appreciate if UmmAdam could share her views about.
salaam
Jan 09, 2008 @ 10:29:01
Wow!! I just have to say that these kinds of fatawa come from too much questioning. Allah and his messenger said that the previous nations were destroyed because of this. And in the quran Allah says “Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know.” (In Kuntum La Ta’lamun) Meaning people are asking questions that are obvious and have been answered clearly by Allah and his messenger. Excessive questioning is not something that is praisworthy and causes restrictions to be made where there were none before. People need to study the qur’an and the authentic sunnah for themselves first and then if something is not clear ask for clarification. And Allah knows best….
As far as hijrah, the only connection with america I want to have and the only “legacy” I will hand down to my children with Allah’s help is the love for a cheese burger and a slice of pizza, other than that everything, environment, medical services, education, safety, freedom of religion ect I find are better overseas.
Jan 09, 2008 @ 12:47:47
No Muslim should harm another muslim. The true Muslim is the one from whose tongue and hands other muslims are safe. This is tongue and hands, what is to be said about private parts then? I do not care if it is a incurable or curable STD, a muslims’ health (OUR RIGHT) is not to be violated because of someone elses’ in most cases OPTIONAL rights. A muslim womans’ right by her husband is protection, unless she gives it up.
Jan 09, 2008 @ 15:04:50
thinkingitover thanks for explaining. i think u have a point.
by the way .. on the maid issue..you are right..people do gloat..however i’m thinking of that from another perspective. when yur super old and can’t do much for yourself..like my grandmother and i hope my grandfather doesnt get to that stage, having a maid really helps.
My grandparents have a maid working for them whose family is from some village and obviously they are poor but not super duper poor. There’s classes even among them. Anyway, my grandparents treat her well, provide for her food, clothing, give her extra for her family. And her and part of her family LIVE on my grandparents property. They are like PART of the family and well taken care of. I even talked to the maid over the phone just yesterday 🙂 anyway..lol
My mother has been diabetic for years. She’d rather go back and have someone take care of her in her home instead of her having to do dishes till she’s 70.
u see the point..? maids is not always about exploiting people or gloating. its simply a fact of life and this existed back in teh time of the prophet saw as well, that you are paying for legit services
Jan 09, 2008 @ 19:19:54
Getting back on topic..the STD issue has me wondering still. Several commentors have mentioned the wife’s right to divorce if the husband takes another wife who has an STD, and others mentioned the selfishness or lack of care in a woman who has an STD and wants to marry into polygny. I don’t believe that all women with STDs who want to marry are selfish or careless. Some may be, (and that would most definitely be jacked up), most probably are not: They just want to receive the rights and protection of a marriage afforded to any other woman. And I don’t think every man who might want to willingly marry a sister with an incurable STD is selfish; that sister may have wonderful deen, personality qualities and talents that would make her an asset to the family. Yes, in a perfect world, of course. I’m just putting other scenarios out there that can and do exist. It is not just black and white. (Well, maybe it is for some.)
But, again, what of the woman with an STD who wants to marry a man with no other wives? Is she to prescribe celibacy for herself and never seek marriage so that she does not harm anyone else and live the remainder of her life without a husband even though she has initimate needs of her own? Always having to work or rely on the handouts of family and others because she has no husband to suppport her?
Are there differences of opinion among the scholars regarding her?
Jan 09, 2008 @ 19:40:11
Going back to the point of Umm Adam’s post, Im left wondering about polygyny as a whole? Today, there are many STDs. Granted, not all of them are deadly but most are for sure inconvenient to our lives and can cause some long term harms. Umm Adam mentioned how a lot of cowives suffer from cyclical yeast infections and I had no idea. I was floored by that because I’ve never had one in my life, although, I know it can be common for some women. I definitely would be angered if I was dealing with persistent reinfections. What Im getting at is it safe to say that Muslim women who opt for polygyny are choosing to expose their health to harm in some way or another? Because the bottom line is that a man can become a carrier, whatever he exposes himself to he exposes all of his wives to.
Onto the hijrah thing. KSA doesn’t really give out citizenship. They say they do, but you almost have to be superman with a leprechaun’s pot of gold to pull it off. Although, Im not too sure Umm Adam or her husband would want to switch passports anyway as that would greatly decrease their status in there since neither are Saudi or even Arab.
I have dual citizenship in my husband’s country but the US doesn’t recognize it. I use it in the country when I need to and my US passport when I need to. We are in the process of applying for both passports for my baby as well. It’s a lot of running around and waiting and waiting, but dealing with all government offices is exactly the same way. You get use it and say Alhamdulilah.
Jan 09, 2008 @ 19:53:51
Umm Atiyya, we don’t live in jannah, sweetie. Really, we have to wait up and take this dunya for what it is, a continual test. It doesn’t matter how she received the STD, what matters is that she has it. It is her test given to her by Allah to bear and in bearing that test she will have difficulties. And the truth is we all have difficulties in many areas of our lives. I don’t know if it is haram, but I think it is very shameless of a Muslima with an STD to accept the proposal of a married Muslim man who does not have her illness. Her happiness and comfort is not greater than that of the health and well being of the first wife and her children. Infact, in fiqh, many rulings are given on what serves the greater good of society, not the good of individuals. Her situation is tough, but it would be tougher if she infected a whole family of people because she couldnt tame her desires until a man on equal footing approached her.
Jan 09, 2008 @ 20:25:46
I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is that regardless of whatever fatwa one wants to quote, at the end of the day, each person is responsible for themselves on the Last Day.
It is clear that you can basically find a fatwa to support almost any opinion, some almost boarding on insanity, ie the al Azhar sheik who decided that mixed working situations are okay as long as the men involved suckle at the breast of every woman that they work with.
Intention (niyya) is everything. It still makes me sad that some people think they can fool God. If you go out “fatawa shopping” it is clear you will find at least one that will justify anything you want to do, but it doesnt fool God. God is very aware you are not interested in the right answer, you are interested in finding the answer you want. So it might help to justify your actions with friends and people you know, but it is so far from the truth so as to look nothing like it.
Scholars are there to advise, but they are humans, not prophets, and they error and engage in things that all humans do. At the end of the day a fatwa should be looked at as advise, and not a commandment. Of course as a Sunni I view fatwas different than Shi’a, so I retain the right to ignore and refuse to follow fatawa that are obviously untrue and often obscene.
Look at what is out there in the way of fatawa and you’ll see that much of it is nonsense. Look to The Qur’an and Hadith for answers, look to scholars for advise, and if your heart and intentions are true you’ll find the right answer.
Jan 09, 2008 @ 20:35:08
Ummattiya,
No, the women who and men who have STDS and want to marry are not selfish, and neither are the ones that want to marry them. What is selfish is thinking that such an infection is between you and your spouse, not the other wife. Thinking that it’s the business of the couple, and not the business of the other wife. That is selfish, that is wrong.
salaam
Jan 10, 2008 @ 00:08:34
Muslemah and thinkingitover: I appreciate what you’ve all said, and I know that whatever condition a person has is a test, but I’m specifically asking about the sister who is NOT trying to enter polygyny and no other wife is involved. I got to thinking about the issue and it puzzled me that people tend to think a person with an STD is almost automatically regarded as someone who either unclean, uncaring or can’t hold her/himself in check. As I said, the issue is not black and white. And I do understand about keeping from harming someone for the greater good.
So, I’m still back at the same question regarding sisters or brothers who are not in, or looking to enter polygyny. Does anyone know of a legitimate fatwah from a legitimate (meaning not on the fringe of reality) scholar on whether it is permissible for such a person should marry?
Jan 10, 2008 @ 01:27:37
salaam, abu sinan said it the best.mashaAllah,we are all responsible for our actions, and to blame a fatwa on something youve done to Allah on Judgement Day is not going to work…
Jan 10, 2008 @ 01:46:27
actually there was a fatwa and I cant tell you where you would locate it but it was under the principle about reciprocationg harm to oneself.As slaves of Allaah we cant agree to willingly inflict harm on ourselves, why because we don’t own these bodies we didn’t create ourselves Allaah created us.To him we belong and to him we will return.I notice even fatwas that don’t have anything to do with marriage just general issues, beautifation,health, the shuyookh always says if it causes the body harm it isn’t permissible.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 01:46:37
I myself have experienced something along these lines with what I call ‘the cut and paste scholar’ this is a sister on a knowledge based group whom when a serious question is asked to the group; she will come up with a fatwa she thinks appropriate to the situation but often not only is it not appropriate for the situation; it is almost like rubbing the questioners face in it; or trying to make them feel like they have done something wrong, or haram when they haven’t. I myself have a question about fasting; and some complex long-winded medical and other issues I have. When I asked it on a sisters knowledge-based group; I was posted fatawas about people who missed fasts or didn’t make them up out of laziness or without a legitimate excuse even though what I wrote clearly showed I was not in the same category as these people as I missed the fasts due to what could have been a real life and death situation. Then I asked a scholar on paltalk and he didn’t get my question at all; and answered it similarly to those on the group; again I think due to cultural misunderstanding. I do know people who have access to both the major and minor scholars who have offered to field the question on my behalf realising what I really mean; but I have been waiting and waiting and never received an answer for over two years now!
Jan 10, 2008 @ 01:56:48
UmmAttiya,
I think that what you are asking for is pretty commonsense. Of course it is o.k. for someone who has an STD to marry. I don’t understand why we need a scholar to confirm this. People should be educated on how STDs are transmitted. Just because someone has an STD, it doesn’t mean that there is no hope for them to not infect someone.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 02:04:36
As a matter of fact i believe it was sheikh fawzee who said a man or woman who has herpes she has to marry someone with the same situation as her.I remember there being a big thing about this in my community.Also in a way it is selfish for a woman with herpes to agree to marry someone without it regardless if he is married.She is spreading it throughout the muslim community.That isn’t a good thing to do.
Me personally I would feel guilty.Suppose the marriage doesn’t work out and they divorce now that brothers life is ruined.It is best for that person to find someone/couple with the same situation as them.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 02:34:34
“thinkingitover”
we should watch giving out fatwa.You cant say something is commonsense and permissible something that you don’t know is commonsense or permissible.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 02:44:18
Wow, I wonder if people (whether the scholars or the questioner) are adequately distinguishing between the absolute bare minimum of doing the fard and avoiding the haram and someone asking about the best, wisest course of action for a particular situation.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 03:41:40
hasnah,
I’m not giving out “fatwas” but I don’t understand why we Muslims think of ourselves as being so far off from that we can’t even see if something is clear as day.
Did you have to get a “fatwa” to believe in God before you began believing in God? Did you have to get a “fatwa” to not kill before you believed that killing was wrong? Did you have to get a fatwa to wear a pair of socks before you wore a pair of socks? Did you need a “fatwa” to get online before you got online today?
Every man and woman comes with flaws, did any of you married ones get a fatwa before you married? Are you, Hasnah, going to go get a fatwa when you get married (if you haven’t already married)?
My life is not 100% fatwa approved, because I often see things as clear as day— no matter how black and white someone else may see it— and don’t need a fatwa to confirm what I already believe. Sure not everything I do is right, but I’m quite confident in most of the things that I do… so I am not about to clog up some scholars fatwa inbox about things that I already look at as clear and simply foolish to even question.
If you would like to get a fatwa, that’s fine. But I’m not going to live based on fatwa approval….
“Those socks you are wearing, are they fatwa approved?” “Those earrings, they look really suggestive, are they fatwa approved?”
It’s all about people’s initial opinion, perception, and idea that make people seek a fatwa in the first place. If I don’t see something wrong or have some sort of initial discomfort, I’m not going to go ask for a fatwa.
Now, I don’t mean to vilify someone who needs a fatwa for their own personal satisfaction. But I just don’t believe that I need to go chase down a fatwa for every question that is asked. And or at least too astonished that I can’t imagine searching for a fatwa for someone else.
Everyone is responsible for their own self… and if any of you all are living and breathing based on what someone else has given as a “fatwa” over then just remember that what you take is what you are responsible for. Fatwas can give you great things, and open your mind to great stuff… but not every fatwa is the same as another fatwa that talked about the same thing.
We act like these “fatwas” are 100% proof from error, but as UmmAdam has made clear with her post there are fatwas that have a big error in them.
It’s a simple as *that* for some. As as hard as *that* for others. Take what you want to take. Just don’t rely on this “fatwa happy” foolishness that some people are seeking ( “I have an STD and I want to give it to my wife without her knowing, I need a fatwa for to approve of my actions!”)… as if everyone that is issuing fatwas are right.
I’m sure bin Laden has some fatwa approving his actions somewhere too.
salaam
salaam
Jan 10, 2008 @ 03:58:19
thinkingitover:
LOL, I’m dying over here… can I just say that you used the word “fatwa” 31 times by my count.
But seriously, I agree with you 100%
Tru3
Jan 10, 2008 @ 05:14:22
telling someone that its permissible to go around spreading diseases throughout the community is not using your commonsense.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 07:14:31
Taken from the book called “A Concise Manual of Marriage” from
al-Allaamah, ash-Shaykh Muahmmad Ibnu-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen on pg.82-83
[Q12]: I want to marry someone who has herpes and his deen and
character is very good. What do you suggest I do?
[A12]: The rulings of Islaamic law addresses everyone; sick and
healthy in a similar way.
With regard to the one who is sick, Al-Imaam Muslim collected a
hadeeth from Aboo Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allaah (Peace and
blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“The owner of sick camels should not bring them to the healthy ones.”
Concerning the one who is healthy, the Prophet said:
“Run away from the leper as you would run away from a lion.”
Collected by Al-Imaam Ahmad and it was graded as saheeh by Al-Imaam
Muhammad Naasirud-Deen Al-Albaanee.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 07:15:58
One of Da’ees from here in Durham NC asked Sheikh Muhammad As-Somali
if the person could go ahead a marry someone with a disease if they
didn’t care, the Sheikh said it was not permissible even if the person
that didn’t have the disease wanted to marry the one with the disease.
They asked the Sheikh again “what if the one with disease has a
disease that lies dormant?” He didn’t budge, he still said it was not
permissible. He said “that if the person marries anyway then it is
makruh (high disliked), but not a major a sin.” Sheikh Muhammad
As-Somali is a student of Sheikh Muqbil.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 07:16:42
that was posted on salifisisters yahoogroup
Jan 10, 2008 @ 09:28:38
Statistics vary greatly but between 50% to 80% (some sources say 90%) of the American population has Herpes (Herpes Simplex Virus-I) while only about 20% know they have it. About 25% have HSV-II, and only 10% know they have it.
Here is a country by country extrapolation of prevalence of HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS-I:
http://cureresearch.com/c/cold_sores/stats-country.htm
So the good news is the people who do have HSV look seem to be in the majority and therefore have more of a choice of marriage partner. If they are allowed to marry each other, that is. I wasn’t sure from the fataawa. If they are then there is a website:
http://www.arabswh.com/
Jan 10, 2008 @ 18:00:42
Hasanah: Thank you for your comment, but I think when you said
“Also in a way it is selfish for a woman with herpes to agree to marry someone without it regardless if he is married. She is spreading it throughout the muslim community.”,
you may not understand something about the condition of herpes. It is only spread when the one who has it is in a state of having active blisters, or a state just before that when the blisters first apear but have not yet broken. (Sorry for the deatil if some of you are squeamish, but it should be clarified.) From the medical articles I have read on it, it can lie dormant in a person’s body for LONG lenghts of time, with no adverse affects on either the person with it, or on a partner whom the person is intimate with. A person does not automatically spread it to someone else when the person is not in one of these 2 states. So, unless this woman or man who wants to marry is actively having an outbreak of blisters, and is committing zina, there is no “spreading if throughout the Muslim community.”
Also, regarding the hadith you quoted
Concerning the one who is healthy, the Prophet said:
“Run away from the leper as you would run away from a lion.”
Collected by Al-Imaam Ahmad and it was graded as saheeh by Al-Imaam,
yes, it is saheeh and I don’t refute it since I’m not knowledgeable enough, but there is also a sound hadith, and I’m sorry I can’t recall the narrator, in which Rasulullah went up to and shook the hand of a man with leperousy.( Obviously one of these two narrations happened before the other, but I can’t say accurately which.)
Jan 10, 2008 @ 19:58:35
I started digging through the AlBaseerah threads for the coooookiest question to the Scholars ever…but my eyes are just glazing over..so please forgive the paraphrasing…someone for real asked the scholars…
How do I stop my children from drinking out of the stinja bottle.
Jan 10, 2008 @ 20:05:49
lol…That is an age old question, better to be asked to Dr. William Sears! Kids been drinking out the toilet, since the invention of it! lol
Jan 11, 2008 @ 00:30:05
Ummattiya
that statement about only spreading it when one has an outbreak.I don’t want to put my business out there but you can spread herpes if you don’t have an outbreak.Also doctors are not claiming that waht you said isn’t true just look at any valtrex ad, they say it in the ad.I don’t know if you are getting your facts from reading it or from others experience but that statement is not true.I am not ashamed to admit anything as you don’t know who I am or where I come from but alot of people are under the impression that herpes can’t be spread while one doesn’t have an outbreak
Also people in my community who have herpes will tell you that they have never had any problems finding a person with the same situation so that is a non-issue as much as it is for someone who doesn’t have herpes.We all have a hard time finding a righteous spouse.We all have to be patient.
regardless of the hadith the Sheikh still said it wasn’t permissible.
Jan 11, 2008 @ 06:48:34
Salam Alaykum,
1.Such topics are adressed case by case. If a man is OK with marrying someone with an STD (curable or not, or any other desease for that matter) of course it is halal. He was aware of it and it was his choice. Same goes for a sister. Everyones’ needs are different, and those who say that a woman with an STD should not seek to be married, I think we need to stop putting forward our opinions (speaking of Allah without knowledge is haram)and start brushing up on our knowledge and understanding of marriage in Islam.
2. It is impermissible to hide something from the prospective husband/wife if it is known that this information may affect their decision. It is also impermissible for the family/friends of the brother/sister seeking marriage to hide such information, if they fear Allah. All of this has evidence in the Sunnah, we should refer to it.
3. In regards to a brother who already has a wife and wishes to marry another woman who has an STD, it is impermissible for him to not disclose such information to his wife, since the womans’ STD will affect her as well (regardless if curable or not). Polygyny in itself can have different rulings depending on the individual case, it can be mubah, mustahab,wajib, makruh, haram…depending on the man and his situation. Assuming that polygyny can become wajib upon the man, still, in case the woman he has in mind has a desease that will affect his wife, it is haram for him to hide this. Just as it is haram to hide such information if he/she were single, as it affect lives and decisions, and may amount to violating a muslims’ rights.
This deen is not based on logic alone, if it were, Ali ra said we would then be wiping the bottoms of the kufs not the tops. However, there are some things that are very clear, and this is one of them. And if we just don’t get it, well, then, knowledge is available and we are to seek it.
Jan 12, 2008 @ 17:45:56
I’m not sure whether this has been mentioned, but shouldn’t the sister DEMAND the brother and his wife(ves) be tested for AIDS/HIV and other STDs? After all she is the one responsible for her health and well being.
Jan 22, 2008 @ 11:52:28
subhaan Allaah sister you should be careful what you say about the poeple of ilm ‘This indeed is a dangerous fatwa,’………………………….. is this coming from you?
Jan 22, 2008 @ 16:13:06
muslimah…as you can see..that statement is about the fatwa..not the sheikh. 🙂
it is indeed dangerous to consider shuyookh infallable.
Jan 26, 2008 @ 04:35:31
This *muslimah* character seems to be threatening you. As crazy as I think some of the things you say are, I enjoy reading your blog. I would be careful because this sounds like a threat. Anyone that would threaten or harm a person because of their thoughts are cowards and, not fit to walk but should crawl like the serpents they are on their bellies!
Jan 30, 2008 @ 04:09:06
“The flesh of the Scholars is poisonous. It is well known that Allah will expose those who seek to revile and belittle them and that whosoever lets loose his tongue by insulting and belittling the Scholars, then Allaah will cause his heart to die before he actually dies.”
Some of the scholars are qualified doctors who studied and have attained qualifications. Ofcourse the shaykh knows what he is talking about, STDs are not a phenomenon only in the West.
Do you really believe it is permissable for you to announce that the fatwa is dangerous and the shaykh did not understand the implications of his ruling? Is the the shaykh’s fault because of his words for the way other brothers go on about it? Certainly not.
I believe your words are belittling the scholar, especially when you claim “should have explained that the Shaykh may have not completely understod the question and that this answer should be reconsidered in light of that.” Who are you to say his fatwa should be reconsidered? A3oothu billaah..
I also believe your statement “With that said, where do you go to get a Ghetto Fatwa?” is kind of mocking. It is almost like you are saying the shuyookh are in stone ages, not knowing anything that goes on outside their place of residence.
Another thing, this is like sitting in a meeting with qualified doctors telling them they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Well, may Allaah guide us all to that which is correct.
@ alwaysred: I know the shuyookh are not infallable, we are all prone to make mistakes.. HOWEVER! As the hadeeth says above. Is she qualified to say that the shaykh didn’t understand what he was saying and that his answer should be reconsidered? This is not our place as laymen.
@ Islam Condones, Players, Pedophiles, and Abuse: If you just re read my previous comment, you would see that was clearly not a threat, a piece of advice.. that’s all.
Jan 30, 2008 @ 13:09:23
@muslimah: I am sure you are one of the ones going to her husband complaining about what she writes. Are you sure you are not a chauvinistic Saudi man pissed that she is questiong things? No man is perfect no matter his title. I am pretty sure this guy is old. This comes with age you lose touch with the topics of today’s youth. I completely agree with most of what she said. How would you feel if your Husband took another wife and, you ended up with an STD that you couldn’t get rid of because of the refusal/ignorance to be tested. AIDs and herpes have no cures and are body wrecking diseases.
Jan 31, 2008 @ 07:45:37
this is why someone called your man? My goodness if all things were equal Mr. Man would have his phone ringing off the hook. The things I could say about such “fatwas” and I so use that term in a broad sense considering the legal decision given in those two instances.
considering the rise of HIV and other STD’s in the ME region it is very important for any ‘scholar’ who wants to issue ‘fatwas’ to be aware of these issues. Just as it is important for a ‘scholar’ to be knowledgable about Islamic legal issues he must also be knowledgeable on social, economic, health, and many other issues if he is going to issue a ‘fatwa’ about that subject. To do anything but give a verdict out of full knowledge is just plain wrong and harmful to our societies as a whole. (yea I said it..and??? try calling my man if ya wanna lol)
I’m really one who is against these online fatwa banks where people just happily pick and choose. This isn’t just about leaving ones brain at the door and blindly following a ruling from whoever. This is also about the makeup of our ummah, as global and diverse as it is. If one is going to seek advise it should be closer to home.. not by some guy sitting thousands miles away unware of your personal situation when the question affects you personally.
Sure marry another women and don’t tell her the first wife has an inccurable STD.. so many things i could say and still Mr. Man won’t get a call 🙂
Jan 31, 2008 @ 17:41:32
JazakAllah khair Umm Adam for pointing this out. Indeed it is a very important subject. There are countless occasions where people (esp. from the West) have taken shayookh’s fatawa’s out of context or they have asked their questions in a misleading way and then later claim that they had asked the ‘shaikh’.
May Allah azzawjal guide us all to what pleases Him.
Jan 31, 2008 @ 21:02:38
Muslimah, STEP AWAY FROM THE KOOL-AID! I’m not sure if you realise how foolish you sound or how foolish you make the Shaykh sound. I give the Shaykh husnaan thun, because to be honest, I don’t know how the question was asked. I have only read an English translation. I did not hear the audio of the Arabic. For all I know the translator may have made it sound like a general communicable disease and not sexually transmitted. If it was translated correctly and the shaykh still feels as though keeping the two wives separated will stop the spread of an STD…than by all means put out an ad for you husband to find another wife with an STD, stay away from his new wife (while you both have sex with him), and offer her some kool-aid…or do you prefer Sunny Delight?
Nzingha, someone asked me on another post (or was it this one) why nobody harasses you and your husband!
Umm Reem, this is why I put the disclaimer there. i actually fault the translators more, if in fact it was not properly translated. If it was translated properly, than the shaykh still gets his reward from Allah, but that does not make the fatwa acceptable. and if someone is still foolish enough to accept this fatwa (with no disrespect to the Shaykh)then it proves that they left jahil and batil to come full circle to jahil and batil. This is blind following and those of us ‘on the manhaj’ are not blind followers.
Feb 01, 2008 @ 17:15:40
@Islam Condones, Players, Pedophiles, and Abuse: 1. I have no business (and am not interested in) going to her husband complaining about what she writes in her blog, we all shall be questioned on yawmul-qiyaamah. 2. I do not even have contact details for her &/or family and do not wish to attain them.
You should be careful of what you name your brothers and sisters in Islaam as I believe you know full well your accusations in your comment were very inappropiate. I found it rather rude and offensive that you suggested I am an old chauvinistic saudi man.. and may I make it known to you I am alot younger than you think I am and I am certainly not a man. Have you ever come accross the verse in the noble qur’aan:
“O you who believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former; nor let (some) women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former, nor defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. How bad is it, to insult one’s brother after having Faith [i.e. to call your Muslim brother (a faithful believer) as: “O sinner”, or “O wicked”, etc.]. And whosoever does not repent, then such are indeed Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, etc.). (Al-Hujurat 49:11) ”
Reflect on this verse and apply it, in shaa’ Allaah, you will be rewarded.
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Saheeh al-Bukhaaree no. 5631:
“Allah’s Apostle said, “Anybody who believes in Allah and the Last Day should not harm his neighbor, and anybody who believes in Allah and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously and anybody who believes in Allah and the Last Day ***should talk what is good or keep quiet.*** (i.e. abstain from all kinds of evil and dirty talk).”
Anyway. All I am doing is giving the sister some naseehah as she is not qualified to make such comments about the shaykh/his fatwa. The shuyook they are alot more knowledgeable than us with regards to the deen so we should not question them without proper daleel. But this is not how we go about seeking clarification, infact I see this post as an open forum for people to come and say something bad about the shaykh/his fatwa.
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@nzingha: There is a hadeeth that says if a scholar gives a religious verdict and it is incorrect he is still rewarded with 1 reward. If they did not have knowledge of other issues such as health, social etc etc I’m 100% sure they would have died a very long time ago.
The main point is, it is possible there is an error in the fatwa/translation, but, who are we to point this out? If you think he shouldn’t have said something, the first thing you should have done was advised or seek clarification on the issue rather than put it out in the public open for debate. I’m not blindly following the shaykh, however, this is not the right way to go about it.
Islam condones etc & nzingha: I don’t go round calling sister’s husbands informing them of what they do in the World Wide Web, whether it’s good or bad.. I have not got time like that to waste. Is this understood?
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“The flesh of the Scholars is poisonous. It is well known that Allah will expose those who seek to revile and belittle them and that whosoever lets loose his tongue by insulting and belittling the Scholars, then Allaah will cause his heart to die before he actually dies.”
The prophet sall Allaahu alayhi wa sallam also said the scholars are the inheritors of the deen. This shows us how much respect we are to have for them.
Advice for myself and you: Fear Allaah.
Feb 01, 2008 @ 22:23:59
@muslimah: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Feb 01, 2008 @ 22:28:21
I think everyone before going into marriage should be tested for all STDs. Because many times the Muslim women are virgins and 99.9% of the time the men are far from anything virginal.
Feb 02, 2008 @ 08:18:23
Hmm, player, what makes you such an expert on statistics? Just curious.
Feb 02, 2008 @ 12:54:14
Not saying I’m an expert but the majority of Muslim women are taught to save their virginity for marriage. But most men are not bringing the same gift to the marriage. A lot of Arab-Palestinian women sabve themselves also, at least the ones I know. Except I don’t think I know a male virgin over 18 except maybe a handful. And I was being sarcastic with the percentage but I’m sure you couldn’t grasp that. Hmmmmm?
Feb 03, 2008 @ 11:58:24
Muslimah: “@nzingha: There is a hadeeth that says if a scholar gives a religious verdict and it is incorrect he is still rewarded with 1 reward. If they did not have knowledge of other issues such as health, social etc etc I’m 100% sure they would have died a very long time ago.”
1st. WHAT?? why would they be dead long ago if they are simply ignorant about health or social issues. That makes no sense at all.
And I’m sure that a woman who contracts an incurable disease will be happy to hear that a sheikh gets a reward for giving her husband the go ahead to marry her while keeping secret something harmful to her health. Yes bravo that we seek to protect one although it may harm so many others. Bravo that STDs can be spread with the OK of a sheikh, even though a man with common sense should know it is wrong. Bravo for further ailing our ummah with disease, infertility and other social ramifications. As long as the sheikh gets a reward.
personally I would hope any true sheikh would beg for forgiveness if he learned of the harm this could cause. I have never met a true sheikh to sit and say..oh well if I get it wrong I get a reward anyway.. yet this is the attitude we take on.
“The main point is, it is possible there is an error in the fatwa/translation, but, who are we to point this out? ”
If such errors have a possiblity of existing considering the dependency or plain abuse by some Muslims to use it and apply it in their daily lives IT SHOULD NOT BE PUT OUT THERE. I don’t think the sheikh posts these fatwas on the web, others do, who I would hope know English and the ramifications of such a verdict. We are individuals enjoined on the same duty to SPEAK OUT when we see an error, sheikh or not. That is WHO WE ARE and WHY WE SHOULD speak out, question, and debate if necessary.
As for seeking clarification it is clear. The sheikh said go and marry, keep the secret, just keep the women away from each other. I take issue not only with the obvious no understanding on behalf of the sheikh of an STD but also to that such secrets are ok for a man to keep from his wife.
as for your last commment.. lost on me because I never directed anything to you.
Feb 03, 2008 @ 12:02:44
Islam Condones: I would disagree with your statistics at least here in the ME. I say all should be tested for STDs considering one of the most run to operations of girls in the ME region is hymen reconstruction.
Considering that STDs can be deadly, cause infertility, cause havoc on ones bodies and have other impacts on society. I would vote for all people getting married to be checked for STDs and other medical issues that may be harmful to the couple.
Feb 03, 2008 @ 13:02:26
Player, you know what? I feel sorry for you, because I think now your stupidity is natural, not an act.
Feb 03, 2008 @ 14:25:09
It takes one to know one. You Muslims enjoy name calling.
Feb 05, 2008 @ 02:42:22
What name did I call you? Are you halucinating? Oh yeah, you don’t like name calling, like heathen, haywana, crazy people ect. Its just that I rather be all of this then a disbeliever like you, SMILE!!!
You poor little girl
Feb 05, 2008 @ 02:44:34
By the way, in your ID, there should be no comma between ‘condones’ and ‘players’.
Feb 12, 2009 @ 22:46:21
Jun 11, 2017 @ 12:46:52
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=10&Topic=9805