On positive feedback
Feb. 17th, 2006 03:17 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
schemingreaderI am working on improving my comments to fan art, and in the process, reflecting on why I like leaving comments, and what I think I'm doing when I make them.
I have read some essays by Alfie Kohn on praise, and how making children dependent on external approval can be damaging. Unfortunately, I was raised to depend heavily on external approval. Had I not been raised in this way, I would probably not have begun writing fan fiction. Indeed, I would not have stopped writing fiction for a few decades. While almost nothing could make me stop writing, I was badly hurt by criticism.
Nevertheless, I believe that in order to grow as writers and creative people, we need to adjust and refine our techniques.
So if praise is addictive, and supposedly constructive criticism can be destructive, what are we supposed to do to encourage each other (and ourselves) to develop our skills? I think I do want to praise and be praised, but I want to give and receive praise that builds rather than undercuts initiative and creativity.
1. Any comment is good, because it shows you read the story or looked at the picture.
I don't think I need to explain this much more. The internet gives us opportunities that regular publication doesn't--a sense of egalitarianism between writers and readers. I remember about 15 years ago, a friend who was an early adopter of the internet looked up a professor whose literary criticism he had liked, and wrote to him. The man was really shocked and a bit frightened! He didn't expect his hypothetical readers to actually respond to him! That is a dynamic that is really changing.
2. A positive comment is better than a negative one.
Yes, Alfie Kohn is right. We are addicted to praise. I am not giving up coffee, yet, either. Even a simple "wow!" lets me know that someone read and enjoyed what I wrote.
Nevertheless, I'm trying to hold myself to a standard for comments that acknowledges the unique qualities of a piece of writing and of its author. So I don't just want to say "good job!" or "squee!" because I could say that to anything or anyone. I don't want to intimidate myself out of offering a comment though. Tricky balance.
3. Some writers appreciate correction and some don't.
Most writers do like it if you notice their typographical errors, because it shows you gave their work a close reading. The inimitable![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
busaikko will write a short sex scene for anyone who points out an error in her comments!
Not everyone likes to have their typos corrected, however; some writers might find it embarrassing.
Perhaps one way to handle it is to email the person privately and offer such suggestions. I have offered some minor typo correction in LJ comments, and not had any response at all. I took that to mean that the writer was offended.
I don't know what to do when I read a piece of writing by a new writer that has many typos and fandom clichés. I want to offer to beta, but that seems insulting. Any thoughts there? I like to encourage new writers.
4. Noticing details and writerly skills builds writers.
I hope this is actually true! I like it when people notice clever things I've done in a story. I try to notice the mechanics of the writing: pacing, characterization, economy of language, good use of figures of speech.
My feeling is that noticing what is working helps people to keep doing what is working. I think it works better than telling them what is not working. What do you think about that?
5. Visual art! Argh! I just don't know why I like what I like!
I know a lot of people use "squee!" and "guh!" and "that's so hot!" to talk about fan art. I think that's okay but I always feel a bit guilty about doing that. I'm really trying to build my observational skills so I can give fan artists the same kind of specific feedback that I give other writers.
I look hard and try to say something good, but it never feels like enough since I find the creation of visual art mysterious. I want to leave more feedback than I do! I love fan art!
6. Responding to each comment--it's actually a good practice!
At first, when I got comments, I didn't respond to every single one. I didn't know what was conventional in fandom. I also didn't realize that LJ automatically sends people responses to their individual comments! Now I try to thank each person for feedback, and to respond thoughtfully to thoughtful things they've said.
You can enter into dialogue with readers and learn a lot about what you are doing as a writer that way.
Any feedback on this? Please feel free. But no correcting my sentence fragments here! I'm stealing time away from making my husband's birthday cake. Luckily, his standards for the appearance of the frosting aren't very stringent...
I have read some essays by Alfie Kohn on praise, and how making children dependent on external approval can be damaging. Unfortunately, I was raised to depend heavily on external approval. Had I not been raised in this way, I would probably not have begun writing fan fiction. Indeed, I would not have stopped writing fiction for a few decades. While almost nothing could make me stop writing, I was badly hurt by criticism.
Nevertheless, I believe that in order to grow as writers and creative people, we need to adjust and refine our techniques.
So if praise is addictive, and supposedly constructive criticism can be destructive, what are we supposed to do to encourage each other (and ourselves) to develop our skills? I think I do want to praise and be praised, but I want to give and receive praise that builds rather than undercuts initiative and creativity.
1. Any comment is good, because it shows you read the story or looked at the picture.
I don't think I need to explain this much more. The internet gives us opportunities that regular publication doesn't--a sense of egalitarianism between writers and readers. I remember about 15 years ago, a friend who was an early adopter of the internet looked up a professor whose literary criticism he had liked, and wrote to him. The man was really shocked and a bit frightened! He didn't expect his hypothetical readers to actually respond to him! That is a dynamic that is really changing.
2. A positive comment is better than a negative one.
Yes, Alfie Kohn is right. We are addicted to praise. I am not giving up coffee, yet, either. Even a simple "wow!" lets me know that someone read and enjoyed what I wrote.
Nevertheless, I'm trying to hold myself to a standard for comments that acknowledges the unique qualities of a piece of writing and of its author. So I don't just want to say "good job!" or "squee!" because I could say that to anything or anyone. I don't want to intimidate myself out of offering a comment though. Tricky balance.
3. Some writers appreciate correction and some don't.
Most writers do like it if you notice their typographical errors, because it shows you gave their work a close reading. The inimitable
busaikko will write a short sex scene for anyone who points out an error in her comments! Not everyone likes to have their typos corrected, however; some writers might find it embarrassing.
Perhaps one way to handle it is to email the person privately and offer such suggestions. I have offered some minor typo correction in LJ comments, and not had any response at all. I took that to mean that the writer was offended.
I don't know what to do when I read a piece of writing by a new writer that has many typos and fandom clichés. I want to offer to beta, but that seems insulting. Any thoughts there? I like to encourage new writers.
4. Noticing details and writerly skills builds writers.
I hope this is actually true! I like it when people notice clever things I've done in a story. I try to notice the mechanics of the writing: pacing, characterization, economy of language, good use of figures of speech.
My feeling is that noticing what is working helps people to keep doing what is working. I think it works better than telling them what is not working. What do you think about that?
5. Visual art! Argh! I just don't know why I like what I like!
I know a lot of people use "squee!" and "guh!" and "that's so hot!" to talk about fan art. I think that's okay but I always feel a bit guilty about doing that. I'm really trying to build my observational skills so I can give fan artists the same kind of specific feedback that I give other writers.
I look hard and try to say something good, but it never feels like enough since I find the creation of visual art mysterious. I want to leave more feedback than I do! I love fan art!
6. Responding to each comment--it's actually a good practice!
At first, when I got comments, I didn't respond to every single one. I didn't know what was conventional in fandom. I also didn't realize that LJ automatically sends people responses to their individual comments! Now I try to thank each person for feedback, and to respond thoughtfully to thoughtful things they've said.
You can enter into dialogue with readers and learn a lot about what you are doing as a writer that way.
Any feedback on this? Please feel free. But no correcting my sentence fragments here! I'm stealing time away from making my husband's birthday cake. Luckily, his standards for the appearance of the frosting aren't very stringent...
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 09:11 pm (UTC)When opening oneself up to feedback the writer should be brutally honest with themself in determining what it is they actually want from that feedback. In most cases the honest answer is, "Praise, laudation, knowledge that not only am I the best writer in the world but also an exemplary human being!"
The fact is, however, that that kind of feedback doesn't help one improve one's writing. Brutally honest (but respectful) feedback helps one improve one's writing. So whenever someone says, "This bit is cliche," or "You keep switching tenses," or "X is totally OOC," a writer should be grateful because those comments can help them learn and grow and improve their future writing.
Of course, that is much easier for me to write than it is for me to actually live. I can get as snotty at criticism as the next person. But I do often find that if I let the comment sit for a day or two and calm down I can see the truth in it and use it in the future.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 09:37 pm (UTC)I don't really want comments in my LJ about how terrible my story is for this or that reason. I've seen other commenters do that to other writers and it just seems churlish to me.
My experience with creative writing classes was that all the criticism was negative. There was NO positive feedback for anyone in the class, from anyone. (Except me, I sometimes gave some positive feedback to other writers because I couldn't take it anymore.) It was like we were being wimps if we weren't harsh.
I find that I can't correct my child in that way. Saying "no" and "don't" has a negative effect. I fear that "good job" robs him of his initiative. Specific appreciation for things I really like brings out those behaviors. That's what I'd like to be doing with my comments--noticing what's good in order to get the writer to do it even more.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2006-02-19 12:13 am (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 10:32 pm (UTC)Something I like about commenting to fics is that, it's like a gift. I know it's going to cause great pleasure to the person receiving it, that's a nice kind of power to have :) and it's a more than fair trade for the pleasure of reading a good fic.
I very seldom leave negative things in reviews. When I do, it's because I like a fic a great deal, but at the same time there's something I don't like about it. That feeling of something that could have been sublime if only it hadn't had that flaw. Recently, I think I've done it a little bit more, and it was well received, and I'm glad of that (because I certainly didn't mean to be insulting to those people but you can never tell when someone will take offense)
Fanart is very difficult to review. I do it seldom as well. And when I do it tends to be even shorter ^^
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 11:27 pm (UTC)I agree! Even more than that, fan art is a wonderful gift, and I feel gratitude that I wish I could express adequately.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 11:09 pm (UTC)Though to be honest I am not terribly good about PROVIDING that sort of feedback... so I can't really complain if I don't get as much of it as I want.
And regarding #3, I'm also fine with getting typo corrections. I'm pretty good at mechanics, so errors probably really are just typos, which breed in the darkness no matter how carefully one proofreads, and therefore I don't mind it particularly if someone else spots one and points it out. But if I weren't confident in my mechanical abilities, I probably would be less happy about it because it might feel like being told I was incompetent (and no one likes to hear that even if it's true, not from strangers certainly).
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 11:31 pm (UTC)Yes, it's true, I am working on learning to provide the kind of feedback that I myself like the best.
(have I told you how much I like your Alison Bechdel icon? From the original DTWOF, right?)
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 11:10 pm (UTC)Also, yes. I love getting comments on my writing that are constructive. That's why I post poetry [very] occasionally. I actively want to know what I'm doing that works and what doesn't. Because really, ultimately I'd like some of it published and I need to know what works. And correct away when it comes to typos and grammar. I'm a proof-reading nerd [I know my lj posts don't reflect this so much, but that's because I tend to write, post, then cringe at the number of mistakes. LJ is very much my thought free outlet when I'm just randomly squeeing over things. I do always feel a little awkward about correcting grammar etc. on things that I don't know the author of. I read so many things on remusxsirius that I want to leave a correction comment on, but I never do because it feels a little harsh. I might try and get into the habit of emailing the author.
As for fanart, I do not leave comments at all. I don't have the knowledge or sort of brain that can analyse art so well. I can appreciate it, but I cannot for the life of me explain why. The english school system works in a way that means I never had to take an art class or an art appreciation class. I did 'art' as a subject from reception to yr9, but it was very much practical and I spent most of it trying to come up with innovative ways to prevent people realising I can't draw for toffee and that I have no art skills. A lot of abstract art and throwing paint at paper came out of those years. Or artfully coloured doodles.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 01:03 am (UTC)'Squee' does tell the author that they've done something good... but what? I got one piece of advice from someone that I can't remember who it was: if you get a one-word comment like that, ask the person what it was that they liked about it. I haven't tried that yet, but I might.
For fanart, I try to point out things that I like about the picture. If it's the hands, or how the figures look at each other, or a feeling that the picture somehoe awakes in me. I think such things tell the artist somethign at least.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 11:29 pm (UTC)Well, obviosly I love hearing both positive and negative comments about my compositions, colour schemes, anatomy etc, but the thing I honestly love most about fandom feedback is that it's more content-oriented than feedback in other artsy circles. A picture of Snape has the potential for so much more communication than a picture of a random big-nosed man, because of all the backstory information we associate with it. This means that it's probably easier for people to enjoy fan art that's not technically perfect, by just focusing on the ideas behind a piece. After three years as a slasher I am still floored by the amazingly positive, loving general attitude towards fandom artists. So much better than my art school experiences.
(Of course, the content-orientedness also partly stems from the fact that most people viewing fan art are not familiar with the technicalities. It's like my feedback on fics. :P)
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 11:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-17 11:52 pm (UTC)I am beginning to think that the best time and place for sustained, productive con crit is in the beta process. Because then you can really have a conversation, you can develop your skills through a dialogue with a reader - but this requires a good and trusting relationship with your beta.
In the public arena, though, I still think it is valuable to point out the minor errors, because that means the writer can go fix them - this is just useful from a practical point of view. And more substantive concrit in public (in LJ comments for instance) can be good too, as long as it's done sensitively. The old adage "if you're going to say something negative, try to say something positive as well" applies - I can always swallow negative comments if they're combined with a positive observation. With "Wormwood" for instance, I got some very useful concrit that actually taught me something about writing, but the concrit came in one of the more glowing reviews I got on the story. If the same comment had just been made in isolation with no positive comment accompanying it, I might have angrily dismissed it. No one ever wants to take seriously the opinion of somebody who, for all you know, has read the entire story and ONLY noticed the bad stuff, completely overlooking anything they might have liked.
So in short, I definitely don't think we should be taking your writing class as a model for concrit. :) Saying only negative things reads against what the writer is doing and thus accomplishes nothing. To make really helpful concrit, you have to be in sympathy with the writer, to understand what they are trying to do, so you can observe where they were more or less successful in achieving it. That is my theory on why "don't always be negative" isn't just a fluffy grade-school let's-all-be-friends attitude but has real practical value. :)
With fanart, you don't need to make technical, craft-oriented comments, just try to put into words why you like it. Even if you cannot articulate how the art is producing that response in you, generally you can at least articulate the response itself - "I really feel the emotion between Snape and Lupin in this drawing" is a perfectly lovely comment to leave, even though you are saying nothing about how the artist achieved that effect. Whatever qualities jump out at you as giving you pleasure, just make note of - the colors, the realism of the figures, the animation of the facial expressions, the emotions (love, anger, isolation, etc.) conveyed, whatever. Whether they relate to a technical aspect of the art or to the response the art produces in you, either is just as good.
Art and music seem to be things that people often feel "unqualified" to evaluate because they don't feel they have the proper training to do so. I know I feel that way about music - I always worry that I have naive taste. :) But what good is an artform if only people with "training" are allowed to have valid reactions to it? Bah, I say.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 11:38 pm (UTC)That's good to know. I do like the technical comments, but you are right that emotion is greater evidence of real communication.
Also:
Yes--the point of the whole fandom experience, for me, is democritization of creativity. This is a good point.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 02:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 12:25 pm (UTC)I don't think I realised that the comment function works quite like that. I might have to give it a go because it solves my problem with wanting to leave corrections, but not wanting the author to feel like I'm getting at them.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 03:29 am (UTC)I am one of those people who want typo's or grammatical errors pointed out to me, whether it be in public or private. Knowing that something of mine could be sitting there for others to read, having an error...makes me crazy!
*via metafandom*
Date: 2006-02-18 05:09 am (UTC)But honestly, a lot of that comes from really feeling that the only thing that is going to really improve my skills is writing more. A lot more. Unspeakable amounts more. I appreciate offers of help, but they don't help all that much, often. Then I feel guilty. :)
Aside from, well, I LIKE IT A LOT, tossing herring at me when I go through the hoop nicely is in fact an EXTREMELY cost-effective way to motivate me to do the work.
Rather, I'm probably 90 percent self-motivated, but the promise of herring gets me through the other ten percent. And it never stops working. I want MORE squee. Better squee. More sustained and higher pitched squeeing.
And some of that is vanity, and some it is, honestly, I DO love giving pleasure. Concrit alone, I have realized, don't actually hurt my vanity so much -- I'm perfectly capable of being vain enough to think I know best anyway -- as somewhat dent that feeling of having given pleasure.
Re: *via metafandom*
Date: 2006-02-18 11:42 pm (UTC)Here via Daily_Snitch
Date: 2006-02-18 05:55 am (UTC)I do agree with you on #4; pointing out the well-done parts of a story affirms for the writer that they were on the right track, and I imagine provides a sense of validation.
It's so tough to give constructive criticism to someone you don't know anything about (it's something I've never done on LJ, actually), as you have no idea how they will respond or what kind of motivation works for them. I think the exchange of criticism is different when working specifically with a beta and there is an established trusting relationship.
Of course, to graciously accept a constructive comment, the author needs to feel confident and have some sense of worth as a writer, which of course, takes us back to your original point with #4!
It's so great to see folks out there reading Alfie Kohn! Did you catch his article on Supernanny? Yikes! He's spot on, IMO.
Lisa
P.S.- mind if I friend you? We have some similar interests...
Re: Here via Daily_Snitch
Date: 2006-02-18 11:44 pm (UTC)I mean to go back and read the Supernanny article, I saw it on the site. I am ambivalent about him. I don't know how to stop praising my kid. He talks about how constantly saying "good job!" is a way of robbing the child of his own initiative. I don't have a problem with not saying "good job!" but sometimes I get so enthusiastic about my kid that I just SQUEE.
Hard to know how to be the perfect mom, sometimes.
Re: Here via Daily_Snitch
From:no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 06:31 am (UTC)This is why I emphasize, almost to an annoying degree, how much I love and crave feedback and I think it may be something that readers miss and misconstrue as feedback or comment 'whoring' on the parts of some writers, possibly myself included in that 'whoring' bunch. I really don't care about how many comments I get to a chapter of fic, feedback isn't important to me in the quantitative but rather qualitative sense. Feedback is what I crave because it can facilitate a dialogue with readers which is what I am ultimately seeking through feedback, not some sort of racking up of feedback comments. I'd rather have 1 comment that engages the reader and I in a dialogue rather than 100 comments that don't. Although there is nothing wrong with the latter, the 'squee!' and 'guh!' and 'that's so hot!' comments; they are still better than utter silence.
The one in which I talk too much, Part One
Date: 2006-02-18 08:11 am (UTC)I have a bit of a not-very-rantish rant way back in my journal somewhere about my own inability to just leave a one-sentence comment on something... and then I forget what I haven't commented on, and so forth. I was doing much better for a while there, but now it seems to have come down to "Did you post on my day off and/or write it just for me? If not, so sorry, no comment for you!" I'm even behind on responding to responses to my own journal entries. Oops.
My first rule of feedback is the good old "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." If I have any criticism, especially if it goes beyond a typo or two, I make sure to both begin and end my comment with positives. Furthermore, if I have anything to criticize beyond typo/grammar issues, I couch it in personal terms rather than accusatory ones ("I think" or "I felt" rather than "you did" or "you shouldn't," etc.). I've never had an author become irate with me, even if s/he didn't necessarily agree with the feedback, and I've seen my influence positively (in my opinion, anyway! :D ) affect a few stories.
Then again, I've never negatively commented about anything that wasn't either purely my personal opinion (and stated as such, with acknowledgment that the author may/does disagree with that opinion and that's perfectly okay) or a provable fact. So I don't think I've ever given anyone the impression of "ZOMG I think your sentence structure could use some work, you suxxor!" If I'm giving concrit, I'm not in a destructive frame of mind at all. Quite to the contrary, I've seen enough potential in that writer to spend the time formulating some advice/commentary in the hope that it will help. I think (hope) that it shows. YMMV.
I personally think that technical errors are no-brainers to point out on LJ (not that I always do, but if I'm in an editing mood). It's an easily fixable format, and one that many of us use as a trial run before uploading to an archive. Beyond that point things become a bit more murky. A lot of times I simply don't bother, especially if it's something very subjective. For example: There is an author whose smut leaves me absolutely cold, but who recieves a lot of comments to the contrary. (Actually, there are a lot of these, but I digress.... ) I can pin down exactly what does it, and it's easily fixable. I doubt I'll ever pipe up about it. Why? The problem is the word "cum" and variations thereof. I hate it. Hate hate hate. Throws me out of a sex scene lickety-split. But obviously it works for plenty of other people, so who am I to rain on her parade? She's not writing for me and me alone, so *shrug*. Besides, my hard drive is where porn goes to die, so how much room do I have to talk anyhow? I just don't read her PWP's anymore.
As for offering to beta newer/younger writers, by all means email them with an offer to beta, but be prepared for a blistering rejection. If they have a lot of typo issues, you can probably get your foot in the door by sending a corrected version of the story, but cliches are trickier business. Fandom cliches range from reasonable extrapolations from canon (particularly ones that support the ship, such as Sirius sending Severus to the Shrieking Shack because he was getting too close to Remus) to convenient shorthand to get on with the porn, already (ever noticed how Hogwarts has an awful lot of unused bedrooms just waiting for students to waltz into? and chess is obviously the sexiest game in the world) to yeah, that's overused, but some of us love it anyway (werewolves mate for life? GIMME!). Have fun deciding what an acceptable level of cliche-ness is; fandom as a whole can't agree. *g*
The one in which I talk too much, Part Two
Date: 2006-02-18 08:13 am (UTC)I do wonder how much The Mechanics of Writing matter to the readers in fandom, apart from constructing a readable story. I find it ironic that far and away my most popular fic is one where I kind of went "Screw the rules, I'm going to be funny any which way I can." I really just started writing it like I was writing a funny anecdote on my journal. I let my parenthesis and semicolon and, yes, sentence fragment ;) addictions hang out (oh, wait, I never curb the sentence fragments, carry on then), along with a couple of premeditated PoV-type shifts -- my writing classes probably would have ripped into it to shreds. It's just... me. Pretending to be a cracky version of Severus Snape. With a couple of amusing Voice of God comments, a severely tortured curtain metaphor, and several sentences that make me wince at their clunkiness in current re-readings. And the turtledove, can't forget the one sentence turtledove reference. And the dang thing is still getting recs and comments, while fics I spent more time "crafting" haven't garnered any interest since shortly after their posting.
Er, sorry about that. I've spent so much time trying to analyze HSS(D)KNT's popularity that I can yap about it for hours if no one stops me. I really did have a feedback related reason to talk about it before I went off on a tangent... oh, I remember. There's one "clever little thing," speaking as a writer, on which I would love to get more feedback: those subtle moments when I've tried to show something to the readers without explanation and without drawing attention to it in some fashion. (This is where the HSS(D)KNT reference comes in. See, I had a reason to think of it!) I used clueless!Severus to highlight actions and comments by having him completely misunderstand and thus telegraph to the reader that there's more than meets the eye there, but there's one line in which I didn't do so -- and no one, in all of the comments, has ever mentioned it. Did the line completely fail, or is it just lost in the turtledoves and kittens? I have no idea. :/ "Whilst Kicking and Biting" has a few of these as well (and would have had more if I wasn't rushed into turning a few scenes into a few sentences of explanation), and while all the comments were lovely and happy-making, I have no idea if I really got everything across, in the end.
It's not like I'm particularly good about commenting on them myself when I'm feedbacking (not really concerning myself with mechanics, after all), so pot kettle black and all. But it certainly sets feedback apart to hear about such things.
Ah, artwork. I've officially given up, and will feedback art with a sentence or two about how cute/hot it is. Perhaps something about the expressions or some odd thing that I really liked in the picture. Unless they've got bits on backwards, I'm not going to know what's wrong with the art, and it makes the artists happy to hear that something looks spiffy. *shrugs* Happy artists = more art = yay!
Re: The one in which I talk too much, Part One
From:I used to be brutaly honest when leaving feedback
Date: 2006-02-18 10:06 am (UTC)It's been drilled into me (from about what, age 5) that it's the work what is being judged, not you per se. That advice has been invaluable because I remember being a poor math student, but the teacher and myself got along great. To the point of her telling my mum that she was impressed by my manner (I didn't give her any personal grief) despite the horrors which were my grades.
I think if writers took that as their credo - it's the work that is being judged, not them personally- people would be less hesistant to offer concrit. There's nothing more unappealing than me doing a lovely concrit and getting flamed all up in my inbox, which is why I've stopped doing it to writers I don't know very well.
To be honest, offering to beta someone is tricky - if you think the work has merit, just put it out there and say so - and if the person wants to take you up on it, fine. Not many choose to take you up on it, because a fair few people don't really want to work on their craft - although they want to be invited to various writing comms. By all means offer, but don't take it personally if the person doesn't accept. It's never about you, and its only fandom.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 01:20 pm (UTC)When I read a story and don't like it, I find it very difficult to give constructive feedback. I'm not even sure if an author would like to get a "negative" feedback in private. This is different from beta-reading, where the writer has actually asked me to point the good things as well as the flaws.
If I like the story, it's easy. I try to point out the wording that I liked or the way the story worked for me. As a writer, that's exactly what I'm interested in: what made the story work - or not work - for the reader. In short: Word on your number 4!
If I comment on visual art, I more or less try to do the same. Although I lack the technical details to describe art, I describe what works for me: expressions, colours, what goes on in my mind while I am watching the picture,...
The only problem with giving detailed, insightful comments is the time it takes. So sometimes I don't comment at all. *hangs head in shame* And that's why I really, really appreciate those authors who respond with a thank you or are willing to discuss their fic.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-18 02:35 pm (UTC)Comments are vexing things, especially when I am trying to produce them. If I like something I see/read, I try to leave some kind of comment, just to say, 'I read/saw and liked what you made.' Most of the time, I really want to write something in-depth because a good piece deserves that, but I find I'm very bad at it. It's easiest to point out the things that are wrong, and simple to review a piece full of mistakes. But to define what I like about something - that's another matter entirely. It annoys me that I'm so bad at giving concrit, and my comments mostly look lame :(. As for saying something negative, I avoid that, generally. I'm too clumsy at it; I think I immediately sound bitchy and I definitely don't want that.
As for the comments I like receiving - well, I am grateful for concrit, but it can annoy me terribly if I don't agree with it :D. I know there are things that I don't do very well, and *they* are what I need help with. I also know what I like about my own work, and I'll be terribly bothered if I get negative comments on those bits :-).
On the whole, I'm just happy with any sign from a reader letting me know they've actually taken a look at my stuff.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-19 09:22 pm (UTC)I think I come at positive reenforcement versus constructive criticism from a sligthly different angle, 'cause I like the criticism more than the positive; it helps me grow more as a writer. You came away with a thick skin having been raised by my mother, not so much for words against you as against the world, and knew that praise was given only when it truly mattered.
Negative comments to fanfic do rattle me more than constructive criticism of origfic as it isn't often worded properly as constructive, but what I did wrong always helps more than what I did right. I don't like to fail my readers, and I shouldn't be offended when they call me on my failings. You also learn more from negative versus positive when when looking at others works. It's easier to note what went right, but to figure out how they failed me tells me more about how not to make the writer's same mistakes.
That said, I know I have a thick skin, and I'd have to know someone well enough to know I could tell them something didn't work and why before I do. Otherwise, in feedback I highlight what did work for me, and leave praise only for things I truly love. Sort of a halfway between too much positive feedback for a beginner I don't think deserves it, and not true constructive criticism for a beginner who may not take it as helpful.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-20 12:50 am (UTC)I don't think it's true that we learn more about writing from finding the failings in the works of other writers. It's true that being able to identify what goes wrong is valuable, but don't you find it even more valuable to be able to identify precisely what a good writer has done correctly? I certainly don't go out of my way to read poorly-written fiction.
Lately I have been making weekly trips to the public library with my toddler. While I'm there with him, I sign out novels. If I don't like them, I don't read them. Even if the novel has won critical acclaim, I'll just skip it if I don't like the writing. I've read plenty of poorly-written books for class assignments, to please a friend who recommended them, and even just because there wasn't anything else around. I'd rather analyze why something worked well and try to do the same than read something crappy. Even making fun of bad writing loses its shine after awhile.
By the same token I believe that we as writers learn the most from hearing what did work well in a piece of writing.
I'm often tempted to write a comment that says: "Finally, you write something I like! I've felt so bad that I couldn't find anything nice to say, and this is actually good!" But I restrain myself.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2006-02-20 04:06 am (UTC)The concept intrigued me because I have had a few thoughts on feedback also. No where to share them that won't be considered offensive other than my own Lj.
1. Personally any comment is a good one. It let's me know you were there and I'm not just throwing paint on a wall for no reason. I like to know people saw what I had to say or write and it evoked a response powerful enough that someone took the time to write to me to tell me.
However on the flip side that means flames and the like are also coming your way. In a way that's good. It lets me know that even though they think x,y, and z they still took the time to read it and respond to me. Even if its bad, negative, or heart wrenching whatever I wrote was powerful enough to keep them reading and write to me.
2. Hell yes! I'll take positivity over negativity any day. I like it when people say nice things to me. I think I'm sorta like everyone else in that regard.
3. I find this to be the case more often than not. Most of the writers that I comment regularly on their fic don't mind the corrections or the criticism. I am one of these people. If you don't tell me what I did wrong I can't fix it or get better. I want to get better. I say so in my fics in the author notes. I don't want any one to be afraid of pointing out my mistakes.
However I rarely do this to writing I'm just introduced to because some are very picky about this. On one story I was reading I commented on how much I liked the story but I also said I didn't understand some of the motivation of why a character did what they did or why a behavior seemed so out of place. I didn't understand the mood the writer was trying to evoke because this chapter was so different in feel from the last one. No response. I didn't think it was a critique but I wanted to establish a dialouge to better understand what the writers were doing. Nothing. I still stuck to the story hoping that the following chapters would explain things. Nope it got worse and felt like someone threw me in cold water in the next chapter and I was left with the feeling of WTF! seeing as my last comments were ignored I walked away from the story because I could not understand the why and since the author couldn't take time to respond I felt my time was better spent on fic and subsequently writers that were more understandable and responsive to me.
Then again I could be really bitter about this because I usually comment because I want to not because I need a response. Although seeing all those messages in my inbox makes me all warm and fuzzy in side!
4. I agree up to a point. I love when I get it! When I write feedback from my heart so to speak. When I read a piece and it moves me and I tell the writer exactly what the piece made me feel. What it evoked. What thoughts get spurred off of what they wrote. The writer writes back and says OMG you get it! You really got everything I was trying to say. I'm pleased as punch and flying twice as high.
So when you tell them what worked I think they try to keep doing it but if they try something new and doesn't quite work; they want to get, you know they do but if you don't point it out how will they know what they were going for worked? I only do this if the writer states I'm trying something new let me know what you think, what you really think! Concrit is welcome. Or some version of this in their notes that way I know what to respond to. If a writer posts feedback welcome but no spelling errors or grammar mistakes at least I know where they stand an what they are looking for in feedback. Funny thing is that writers who say this usually have a ton of the errors they don't want pointed out.
When someone tells me I think you were trying for this and I got this and maybe I should try x,y, and z. I appreciate that more so than if they said I just didn't get it.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-20 04:07 am (UTC)5. This is the only thing I won't comment on if I don't like it. Art is too subjective. If it moves me I comment. That's it. I know how long it takes to create something visual. I just can't bring myself to point out what I find wrong or if I think its badly done. In art especially, I think the artist is more critical of his work than I ever could be. I know I am.
6. I like to respond to everyone who has taken the time to respond to me. I want them to know that their time is appreciated. The more effort they put into the comment the more effort I put into the response. Like for like in that way I suppose.
So how's this for feedback? :)
no subject
Date: 2006-02-20 04:25 am (UTC)I guess how to properly comment is something that people find interesting.
I've never seen authors who ask for feedback but no proofreading. That's quite interesting. I suppose they might be worried about the errors one can introduce in correcting typos! BTDT.
I never know what people mean when they say concrit is welcome. I have provided an email address for people to leave comments that they fear I might not want to get in public. I think one aspect of LJ comments is that they are public and that it can be humiliating to have one's story dissected in front of other people.
I'd really love to find a writing workshop or writer's group IRL when I switch back from fan fiction to original fiction. Many people I know have had negative experiences with the workshop process, though. It may be that I will do what I have done in fandom, and seek out beta readers to mentor me in my original fiction writing.
I'm interested that so many people who responded here think they will do better with negative feedback or concrit, or that they should be okay with it.
no subject
Date: 2006-02-22 01:00 am (UTC)I agree that writing more is the way we improve, and I think it can be incredibly easy to crush someone by focusing too closely on flaws. There’s also the question of what the writer wants. Just knowing someone read their work? General encouragement? Specific discussion of what worked, or didn’t? I’ve seen posts where people say they’re not looking to improve, just to enjoy themselves and, well, provide an occasion for squeeing to others.
Thanks for raising this topic!
no subject
Date: 2006-05-05 12:35 pm (UTC)thanks for the thoughtful post, oh and I hope that you don't mind me friending you as I think it's a bit overdue considering how much I like reading what you write, fic or meta
no subject
Date: 2006-05-05 01:08 pm (UTC)I like to give the concrit when I beta, but I have done a lot of beta-reading in the last while. It doesn't feel like criticism when you are an editor, because the piece is still in process and you are only letting the person know how to shape the final story.
I would be delighted to have you friend me and to friend you back!
(no subject)
From: