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September 3

Etobicoke

Our article on Etobicoke gives the pronunciation I've heard, leaving off the final /k/ that would be expected from the spelling, but doesn't really explain the discrepancy. It says it comes from a Missisauga word wadoopikaang, which doesn't really seem all that similar to either the spelling or the modern pronunciation. Does anyone know more about how the spelling or pronunciation came to be? --Trovatore (talk) 21:18, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

If we take "oo" not as English spelling but as a literal "long o" like in German Boot, and assume that voicing and aspiration on "d" and "p" might not exactly correspond with English, it gets much closer. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 01:12, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Wiktionary suggests wah-do-be-kang for the Ojibwe pronunciation of its etymon. I suppose the use of b means the ⟨p⟩ is not injective and that this stands for something like IPA /wʌˈdoːpɪkʰʌŋ/.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:34, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that wadoopikaang was implausible as a source for the word; I was saying it doesn't really explain the modern pronunciation/spelling with the silent <k>. --Trovatore (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I wonder if there might be a situation with a final nasal vowel here, having been interpreted in various ways... (?) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:11, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

This - varying pronunciations or varying interpretations of a nasal sound - makes sense to me. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 19:17, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I think my response was intended to say that to me the Missisauga word, which has no K at the end, seems (to me) close enough to the modern pronunciation in English. I have no clue how the K might have got into the English spelling. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 19:14, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Graeme Mercer Adam and Charles Pelham Mulvany's very old History of Toronto and County of York, Ontario (1885) and, somewhat more recently, Mary Byers et al., Rural Roots: Pre-Confederation Buildings of the York Region (1976) say that the name appears as "Toby Cook" on several early maps. Rural Roots says that name referred to "the river and land area known after the early days of settlement as Etobicoke" and is of course "more probably a mispronunciation of an Indian word meaning 'the place where the alders grow,' than the name of some unknown adventurous pioneer". While it's possible that the k was only added to the spelling on the basis of the folk etymological connection to a Toby Cook, various sources and our article say an early land surveyor alternatively spelled it phonetically as "ato-be-coake", which suggests to me that a /k/ was initially present or heard by Europeans in locals' or guides' pronunciation. Perhaps it is true, as some here and on Reddit and Quora hypothesize, that the Native pronunciation ended in a nasal and only early on did Europeans mishear and misspell it as k, and later they stopped hearing it as k, and so they fixed their pronunciation and now say the name without /k/, but ... how often does an early, widespread (given the various different early k spellings) mispronunciation of a Native place name get corrected to be more like the Native pronunciation? It seems to happen (more) often that, in the other direction, a Native pronunciation (in this case, one recorded by early listeners as having /k/) gets modified sooner or later by settlers: compare Tucson, which also dropped a /k/ that is still present (as c) in the spelling and is pronounced (as /k/ or /ɡ/) in O'odham and Spanish. -sche (talk) 02:54, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

"Lunda"?

Now I have to ask this as I'm neither Swedish or a native Swedish speaker, but I understand Swedish very well. Why are compound words in Swedish referring to the city of Lund prefixed with "Lunda" instead of "Lund" or "Lunds"? For example, the Lund tramway is called "LundaExpressen" in Swedish. Why is this not "LundExpressen" or "LundsExpressen"? Is this something special to the city of Lund? Keep in mind that I have only learned contemporary Swedish. I do not understand archaic Swedish. JIP | Talk 21:23, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

I believe this is the "Sydvästsvensk a-genitiv". See this article. DuncanHill (talk) 21:37, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

I thought it was something like that, but I didn't know the details. As I said, I have only learned contemporary Swedish. Thanks for your reply. JIP | Talk 21:42, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

No problem! I'd heard it before but never thought about it. Since posting above I also found it mentioned in the Swedish Wikipedia article about the genitive see sv:Genitiv#A-genitiv. DuncanHill (talk) 22:00, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph on this a-genitive to the section Swedish grammar § Genitive.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:07, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

September 4

Anyone know any good online resources for learning Greenlandic?

Title. Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 23:13, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Have you checked the entries in the External links section of Greenlandic language? The second in particular looks to me like the best that is likely to exist, beyond actually going to live in Greenland. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 01:34, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Ah, that does look helpful; thanks! Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 01:38, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

September 6

Misheard lyrics that are actually indistinguishable (sp?) from the real lyrics?

For example, I do not hear "All the lonely Starbucks lovers" in Taylor Swift's song Blank Space. I hear "Got a long list of ex-lovers." But in Taylor's song Lavender Haze, I do hear "I feel eleven turkeys creeping up on me" instead of "I feel the lavender haze creeping up on me." Why are some misheard lyrics indistinguishable (I hope this is the right word and I hope I am spelling it right!) from the real lyrics but others are not? Pinkrenegaderaider (talk) 10:28, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Taylor Swift's song Karma has a couple of misheard ones: "My panties make your crown" can actually be heard instead of "My pennies made your crown" but "A punch in the ass for you it's not" (Aren't you envious that for you it's not) and "Don't you know that cats eat only rice" (Don't you know that cash ain't the only price) are a bit of a stretch but you can kind of make it out. Pinkrenegaderaider (talk) 10:42, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

The third verse of New Order's Blue Monday starts with "I see a ship in the harbour". I've always heard the following line as "Anchored in a shallow bay", whereas lyrics sites give "I can and shall obey". "Shallow bay" and "shall obey" are of course homophone. The rest is less so, but allowing for somewhat slurred enunciation (the possibility of which is what makes English a great language for pop lyrics) "anchored in a" and "I can and" are not a million miles distant either. In your case it's e.g. "[e]leven tur" and "lavender" that are nearly homophone. --Wrongfilter (talk) 11:47, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

The relevant Wikipedia article is Mondegreen. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

Some songwriters have used the ambiguty of homophones for poetic effect, such as David Bowie's "cause Lenin's/Lennon's on sale again." 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:34, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

I am well aware of the "Lady Mondegreen" phenomenon. I find it hilarious seeing all these misheard lyrics. But some seem to be a stretch too far, like "Dyslexics on fire" for Kings of Leon's Sex on Fire, and others are pretty much what Wakuran described, like "I wear goggles when you are not here" instead of "My world crumbles when you are not here" in Macy Gray's I Try. Just my 2¢/2€... but who's counting anyways, hmm? •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 09:26, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

I find the examples given quite distinguishable. It'd mostly be a made-up connection in one's own mind. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:40, 7 September 2026 (UTC)

One shouldn't assume that lyrics sites always get it right. Many seem to just be transcriptions, rather than based on anything verifiable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

The question seems to boil down to "why doesn't everybody mishear the same lyrics the same way"? There's no one answer to that; it's going to be a combination of the accent for both speaker and listener, expectations of the listener, enunciation of the speaker, familiarity of words involved, and a bunch of other things. For example, Purple Haze has a section that famously sounds like "'scuse me while I kiss this guy" when it is actually "'scuse me while I kiss the sky". Part of the reason why people hear the former phrase just comes down to familiarity: everyone has heard of kissing a guy, but the metaphorical kissing of the sky is one unfamiliar to most. Matt Deres (talk) 14:25, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

I've seen claims that Hendrix sometimes said 'kiss this guy' deliberately in live performances, just for fun... AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:24, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

There's an old Spike Jones record about a racehorse whose original name was "Feetlebaum", in reference to one of Doodles Weaver's recurring characters, Professor Feetlebaum. On the record, though, it kind of sounded like "Beetlebaum", and that eventually "became" the horse's name, and even Weaver himself surrendered to that mishearing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:36, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

On lists of misheard lyrics, one item that often comes up is the line "There's a bathroom on the right." Considering the song's name is "Bad Moon Rising", hearing the line that way would have to be due either to complete obliviousness, or more likely to someone being funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:36, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Or to someone hearing the song while not knowing its title.  ​‑‑Lambiam 17:56, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

The title of the song is stated in the first line of the lyrics. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:45, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

It's not quite that cut and dried. For one thing, there's no "s" sound and the rest is pretty slurred. Just phonetically, it sound like "They's a bad oom onna igh" to me. Partly, that's just his style of singing - and I assume it's partly because he's not rhyming there; he's using assonance to match up "tonight" with "life" and with "rise" and a bit of mumbling makes that work better. Matt Deres (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

September 8

ShunDerrick?

A few hours ago I watched a CFL game where one of the players ShunDerrick Powell, and I wondered where his first name came from. Anybody happen to know? According to his article he was born in a small town in Alabama. --~2026-48583-76 (talk) 06:46, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

See African-American names and other articles linked from there. Xuxl (talk) 13:07, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

His father is named Derrick Powell, which explains one component of this blend. There are one or more people named Shun Powell (involved in filmmaking), so the other component may also be due to a relative by that name.  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:25, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Well... it would not be wise for someone to shun Derrick. •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 15:29, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Specifically from our article; "By the 1970s and 1980s, it had become common within African-American culture to invent new names using elements from already popular names". The "Sha-" or "Shun-" prefix may be derived from Sean. Alansplodge (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

• Thanks. --original poster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2026-49082-62 (talk) 09:08, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

As a half-Norwegian, it sounds similar to the Norwegian double name tradition. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:04, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Do you have a name and a half? —Antonissimo (talk) 02:35, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

The meanings of "quite" in American and British English

Sadly, dictionaries don't agree on the meanings of the word "quite", so I tried to do research myself.

My current theory is that in American English "quite" has one meaning: "very" (e.g "quite tired" = "very tired") while in British English it has two meanings: "fairly/pretty" (e.g. "quite tired" = "fairly tired") and "completely" (e.g. "quite exhausted" = "completely exhausted").

If you're an advanced speaker, could you say whether I'm right or wrong? ~2026-48586-51 (talk) 15:24, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Quite right (i.e. completely correct). I think in England you can hear all three usages. It can be quite confusing. See Wikt:quite. Alansplodge (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Quite. DuncanHill (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

A few observations.

In the combinations quite the contrary, quite the opposite and not quite, the word always means "completely" or "perfectly". But, used in quite a bit, quite a few, quite a fortune, and so on, it signals a relatively considerable but not enormous amount. This applies equally to American and to British English.

The adverb perfectly, like so many terms that pull a heavy punch (absolutely, totally, ...), is subject to "semantic bleaching". When an exasperated parent tells their child that they know "perfectly well" that their behaviour is inacceptable, the parent probably knows quite well that their offspring's knowledge in the matter has not yet reached the state of perfection. Its synonym quite tends to be likewise used in a weaker sense. The diluted sense may coexist with the original, strong sense.

The diluted use may be stronger or more common in British use. Brits are known for not quite saying what they mean; e.g., quite poor is a commonly used understatement for "absolutely awful". But this does not mean that American authors are innocent, when it comes to dilution:

• "he runs quite fast when you're not here" (Stephen King. It )
• "levels to which it sometime rose quite easily" (Ibid.)
• "I think I might have gotten into the bottle quite heavily if not for Ki." (Stephen King. Bag of Bones)

(I picked out Stephen King solely because he writes non-bookish English.)  ​‑‑Lambiam 16:51, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

"quite the contrary", "quite the opposite", "not quite", "quite a bit", and "quite a few" are set phrases, so analyzing them word by word is pointless. ~2026-48655-37 (talk) 18:05, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

Not quite. They're still instances of the word being used with specific semantic values. It's still the same word; it's not completely divorced from any individual meaning. It's not quite pointless to analyse for a pattern. ~2026-49020-06 (talk) 10:42, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

It seems you are right. English is not my first language but I can assure you that I know the difference only because British English is taught in Finland but I wanted to learn American English instead so I forced myself to look for differences. This is what I did just to get 2 high school exchange years in America y'all! •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 07:18, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I see that I have inadvertently given examples from American texts that use quite in the sense of "very". Here are some American uses of quite in the original meaning of "completely":

• "Well, Lot of Orkney and the kings of the North have departed; they have quite accepted it now, that we will not choose Lot to be High King until ..." (Marion Zimmer Bradley. The Mists of Avalon )
• "Her revulsion had quite gone in tenderness and pity, ..." (Ibid. )
• "She felt quite recovered now, ..." (Ibid. )

Consistent with the subject matter, an Arthurian legend, the register is rather more formal.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:14, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

propagandist

My question arises from the italian edition of the Murdoch Mysteries, probably episode 113 Election Day. There are two men that assume the identity of missing electors and vote in place of them. The italian film calls them "propagandisti". I was unable to find this meaning on the Webster. I feel a mis-translation. May you give the correct english term and eventually a reference? thanks. ~2026-36692-40 (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

The Italian word propagandisti is the masculine plural of propagandista, which in English is propagandist – a person who disseminates propaganda. I'm not sure what "the" Webster is, but the Webster's dictionaries I know only incorporate those relatively few Italian words that have been borrowed into the English vocabulary, so they will have an entry for allegro, and then only in the musical senses, but not for allegrone.  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:44, 8 September 2026 (UTC)

I was unable to work out how the word allegrone entered into this discussion. Was it used in the episode, or were you just using it as an example? --Trovatore (talk) 20:20, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I found an entry for the episode here; . Although unusual, I think this might well be the term used in the original (Canadian) English broadast. I might be able to check it if I get a good timestamp for the episode, when the Italian dubbed line is uttered. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:22, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks to both. I have not found this meaning in the on-line Oxford English Dictionary. Yes, what I really desire is the word appearing in the english text, but I cannot give a timestamp. Let me reformulate the question "Do you known any single word expressing the concept?".

Perhaps you would like to know that in the italian parliament those trying to vote also pressing the buttons in the close empty seats were known as piano-players~2026-36692-40 (talk) 08:02, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Here, at 21:52, I hear:

"Well then, Mr. Cuddy, you are a plugger. You assumed the identities of legitimate registered voters; you cast their vote for the candidate of your choosing."

The term plugger occurs several times more, also in the plural ("he was the leader of this group of pluggers"). Can plugger have been translated in Italian as propagandista? Plugger is an old slang term associated with voter fraud, but was reportedly used for folks whose business it was to persuade others to cast fraudulent votes by assuming a false identity. But here, we read that in Ireland, "plugging" means to cast someone else's vote. This sense fits well with the use in the episode.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:26, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

The OED says of Plugger "3.b. 1894– Originally Canadian. A person who acts fraudulently at an election; spec. one who votes numerous times by impersonating a number of voters. Now historical and rare." One suspects the propagandisti translation comes from "5. 1908– Originally U.S. A person who promotes pop songs or other products. Cf. plug v. II.7b. " where "Plug II.7.b. 1906– transitive originally U.S. To popularize (a song, idea, product, etc.) by repeated presentation or recommendation; to give (esp. free) publicity to; to draw attention to.", ie to propagandise. DuncanHill (talk) 12:30, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks again. I feel that is a wrong translation of plugger. ~2026-36692-40 (talk) 17:27, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

The term "plugger" reminds me of a comic strip called Pluggers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:59, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

As a comic geek, I'd rather classify it as a panel cartoon, but I've read some of it translated in Swedish. Anyway, in context, that should mean something as "toiler"/ "laborer", I guess. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:33, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes; for OED sense 3.b., which applies here, it is a mistranslation. It should have been a term with a sense such as impostore, but preferably a slang term.  ​‑‑Lambiam 19:51, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Did Jeff MacNelly know this? —Antonissimo (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2026 (UTC)

September 9

Can you think of two phrases that mean exactly the same and are both correct but one is clearly more natural than the other in English?

I am not talking about:

1. Grammaticaly incorrect phrases like "say me"

2. Regional differences like "have/take a shower"

3. Set phrases like "fast food" or "catch a cold"

4. Cases easily explained by a rule like "on/in a bus" ("on" is commonly used to public transport, or transport that one sits astride or uses while standing)

5. Phrases that don't have exactly the same meaning like "heavy/strong rain" ("heavy" means "worse than usual" while "strong" means "having great power")

The best I could think of is "highly unlikely" vs. "very unlikely" ("highly" is literally defined as "very" in dictionaries), but it's not like "very unlikely" sounds bad – just a little bit less common according to ngram and google ~2026-48980-67 (talk) 07:36, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Natural: "Stop beating around the bush."

Periphrase: "Forbear from further peripheral discourse and deliver the core substance of your message forthwith."
 ​‑‑Lambiam 09:13, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Bad big wolf. Big bad wolf. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:22, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

Even your example is based on regional variations. "Highly unlikely" is not universally more common in every variant of English in the world. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 14:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I kind of think "highly unlikely" and " very unlikely", though literally meaning the exact same thing, tend to be used for different contexts.

• "It's highly unlikely that a meteor will fall on one of your cars and a goat will be standing on the roof of your other car at the same time!"
• "The chance of completing this mission successfully and returning alive is very unlikely. Do you still accept this mission?"

So I think sometimes "very" is more natural and other times "highly" is. The contexts for the latter are maybe more popular topics? HierophantOfOmens (talk) 16:12, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

I live in the Appalachians. It is very common (or highly common) for people to use "rightly" and "mighty" for the same purpose. It is mighty uncommon to hear someone say "highly" unless they doing so mockingly. I think this whole conversation will quickly boil down to trying to define when slang becomes widespread enough to stop being slang. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 19:46, 9 September 2026 (UTC)

September 12

On today's episode of "Americans say the darndest things..."

Who the hell are the Joneses? I watch ALOT of American TV. I listen to American music. But I do not know who these "Joneses" are. The common phrase here is "keeping up with the Joneses." Are the Joneses like the pre-Kardashians? Are they a famous American TV family or perhaps political figures? How did this saying start existing? Can't you Americans just say "it's hard to keep up" period? Why bring up the Jones family to this? They are not related to you! (P.S. I am not anti-American. I LOVE American culture the most. It fasinates me.) •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 08:32, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

"Jones" is just a placeholder, a very common name. In this case it means whatever family that YOU want to keep up with. --~2026-49524-25 (talk) 08:41, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

Oh really? Wooh. I hear "Joneses" more often. You don't hear other examples other than that or Kardashians. Face it nobody says "keeping up with the Martinezes" or "keeping up with the Wongs" or "keeping up with the Nguyens." •PINK RENEGADE RAIDER• (Can we just talk, figure out where we're going?) 08:46, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

The title "Keeping up with the Kardashians" was clearly picked as an allusion, possibly due to is alliterative aspects. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:51, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

The expression, and its meaning, originate as the title of a cartoon strip by Arthur R. “Pop” Momand inaugurated in The New York Globe on March 31, 1913. Amazing what a couple of minutes of websearching and Wikipedia searching can reveal.

Incidentally, the expression is also so commonplace in the UK that I initially assumed it originated here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 10:38, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

See our own article Keeping up with the Joneses and the Wiktionary entry keep up with the Joneses.  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:49, 12 September 2026 (UTC)

"The Joneses" were proverbial in Australia of the 1870s, and probably elsewhere, as a family of lower social standing. Doug butler (talk) 00:04, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

September 13

Mons, cœur en neige

Looks nice, but what's a good English translation of the name?

French translation request, I'm thinking of doing an English-language article (or at least article section) on this Christmas lights event in Mons, Belgium. Sources are available but I can't seem to find an official English translation. I'm planning to use the French name as the title, but any opinions on the best English translation? I've seen "Mons, Heart of Snow" or "Mons, Heart in Snow", which do people think gets the French sense more? Neither of them seems very idiomatic English to me, though, so if the second sense is better I'm wondering about making it "Mons, Heart in the Snow" which feels more natural in English to me. Blythwood (talk) 01:30, 13 September 2026 (UTC)

If you are looking to create an article in the English Wikipedia, it might be better to keep the original French name. If you want a translation how about: "Snowy heart"? But this, and those you have seen, are more literal translations. If I remember correctly though, "Cœur" can sometimes be used in the sense of the centre or core of something, and "en Neige" can be used to give a sense of the warm cozy comfort you can find in cold, wintery times. But then again, a more idiomatic translation might be something a bit less poetic, like a UK town council might come up with, such as: "Winter Festival" or "Christmas Market". Astronaut (talk) 03:27, 13 September 2026 (UTC)