elf: Life's a die, and then you bitch. (Gamer Geek)
elf ([personal profile] elf) wrote2025-06-11 03:06 pm
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Five Things Make a Post, TTRPG edition

I have been reading the TTRPG space on bluesky.

1) Everything is commercial. Soooo much "buy my thing." You might think there'd be a mix of "buy my thing" and "hey come watch/listen to our playthroughs" but no. It's all "buy my thing."

2) It's really, really hard to avoid D&D and Pathfinder.

3) I had managed to forget how wank in TTRPG spaces goes down. It's never just "D&D has taken over the hobby and that sucks." It has to include "people who play D&D are stupid/cowards/wimps/conformist shills." Possibly with a side of, "if people were paying attention to what's good, they would buy my thing..."

(I do not like D&D. I do not play D&D. I have thought many negative things about D&D, and about D&D evangelists. I have never thought the only reason people play D&D was because they were too stupid to look at other game systems. I am damn well aware there is a ton of inertia involved, plus the hassle of convincing your entire gaming group to try something different.)

4) We don't have any shared vocabulary and this is a problem. Or rather: We have some words - crunchy, rules-lite, narrative game, OSR, "role-play vs roll-play," meta-gaming, RAW, probably a few more - but we have zero agreement on what they actually mean, on which games or play styles fall under which term.

5) Unlike the fanfic communities, there has been no serious meta looking into what's changed when a former on-paper hobby went digital. There are blog posts and such, but they're scattered as hell. And 2/3 of the discussion is weird hand-wringing about what people will or won't buy, not about how the hobby itself changes when the rules are on a screen rather than paper.

+1) If there are discussion groups about TTRPGs-as-a-fandom, I can't find them. Dammit.

+2) Don't get me started on the gleeblor.
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[personal profile] jesse_the_k 2025-06-11 10:19 pm (UTC)(link)

I know,zero about this topic and I'm intrigued by

role-play vs roll-play

I'd be interested in any number of meanings

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[personal profile] princessofgeeks 2025-06-11 11:37 pm (UTC)(link)
I have never gotten into this sort of game but I am game adjacent to many fans of several types. You make me wonder about academics who study these games and write articles about them because I am sure there must be some!
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[personal profile] stepnix 2025-06-12 05:16 am (UTC)(link)
My favorite writer in the field is Jon Peterson. if you read his book The Elusive Shift you learn about the hot debates of the 70s, which are exactly the same as the hot debates of today because we've been going in circles the whole time
stepnix: chibi Shin Godzilla (Default)

[personal profile] stepnix 2025-06-12 05:14 am (UTC)(link)
the vocabulary issue is absolutely dire. each subcommunity finds something that works relative to its own tastes but communicating across those boundaries you have to start from zero every time.

... there's gotta be some kind of AP/recorded play community out there. I guess they just don't share the same spaces with the designers?
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[personal profile] gremdark 2025-06-12 05:27 am (UTC)(link)
They don't seem to! It's always struck me as unfortunate that even smaller Actual Players don't really tend to engage with the game design side of things.
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[personal profile] shadaras 2025-06-12 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
As someone who has spent time in indie ttrpg spaces, I think that the people making games and also doing APs of them are usually just not well-known at all. It's hard to get eyes and ears on them!

But there are some examples, such as Riley Hopkins and Their Amazing Friends (the designer of Interstitial running an AP of their game), and Oathsworn (all the players/GMs are active in a subcommunity of indie ttrpg design, and they custom-built a game for their finale). Probably more than that! Those are just two that come to mind when I think about ttrpg designers.
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[personal profile] cmdonovann 2025-06-17 04:54 pm (UTC)(link)
yes, i was about to mention the same thing! i ADORE interstitial, and the AP was the deciding factor that got me to try it out and branch out away from D&D!
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[personal profile] seekingferret 2025-06-12 11:46 am (UTC)(link)
I have never thought the only reason people play D&D was because they were too stupid to look at other game systems. I am damn well aware there is a ton of inertia involved, plus the hassle of convincing your entire gaming group to try something differ

Okay, this is pretty dammed backhanded in its own right. I'm aware of narrativist rpgs and sometimes play them, but I play D&D because I enjoy it, not because of inertia or hassle.
kiya: (gaming)

[personal profile] kiya 2025-06-12 06:23 pm (UTC)(link)
My socially awkward ass mostly boggles at the idea of "finding games" in general rather than "playing game with established friends". That seems impossible even before one gets to the systems! :}
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[personal profile] kiya 2025-06-13 01:12 am (UTC)(link)
I am loosely aware of much of this, but in a "... I don't understand the appeal" way, I guess? Because I'm particular about what I want at a table and I don't trust random people to provide it, even aside from the meeting-new-people problem.

The idea that they're defaulting to stream I hadn't heard, though. Ow, my head.
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[personal profile] cmdonovann 2025-06-17 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
same! i like d&d a lot, i just ALSO enjoy trying out other flavors of tabletop sometimes. but d&d is very much its own specific flavor, which non-d&d players don't tend to realize (and think of it as just "generic fantasy," which has only sort of become true because of the recent d&d popularity boom). and some people do really like that flavor! or really like specific parts of it that would be too difficult to homebrew into another system (me with how d&d clerics work), so they stick mostly with d&d.
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[personal profile] thewayne 2025-06-12 03:12 pm (UTC)(link)
My biggest problem with D&D - aside from growing up with it and hating it from its White Box days as a not very good system - is that it is so bloody expensive! All of those damn books that you need to acquire to run it, or even play it, is a bloody huge investment! And then you know the Hasbro overlords of WotC will have a new edition released often enough to obsolete what you have if you play with more than one group requiring repurchase. Pathfinder, which I do not play and am not thoroughly immersed in, isn't nearly as bad.

Aside from the cost, from the beginning I thought D&D in all its guises was needlessly complex and that made it hostile to a good RP experience. I worked for Flying Buffalo in the early '80s, the makers of Tunnels & Trolls, and that was a lightweight system. Not the level of Melee or Wizards, but perhaps my brain is just oriented towards lighter systems.
kiya: (gaming)

[personal profile] kiya 2025-06-12 06:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I often feel that a lot of these conversations don't have the nuances that I fit into (but I suspect that's been clear from the occasional times I've gone off on a tear off something I rebageled from you on tumblr, heh).

I don't particularly like D&D. I don't like class-level systems, flat out; the only one I find acceptable is Earthdawn and that's because a) there's actual worldbuilding about why it works that way and b) "levelling up" isn't the way you get better at thing, it's 'when you are good enough at thing you can choose to level up and unlock new things to get good at'. I have reams of comments about the failings of D&D as a system (some of which are neatly summed up by the current GM of my in-person group as "D&D is allergic to flavor").

What is my current in-person table playing? D&D, lightly hacked to stink less on the actual personality available on the character sheet front. And it's fucking great, because the campaign is built as the sort of thing D&D is made for ("people who are epic-hero exceptional and need to save the world via a variety of mechanisms that substantially include combat"), because we've built the flavor hacks, and, fundamentally, because we've got a solid roleplaying table.

The same table has also played other systems, mostly what I call "sloppy GURPS" ("we have character sheets in GURPS in case we need to roll checks on something but otherwise we're just playing"). I might see if we can put together an Earthdawn one-shot sometime if we want a break or want to play down extra people (or down the GM), or some other things. But at the same time it's hard enough to assemble our five adults for the game we're already doing.

My other current game plays Deliria and that is a hell of a lot of fun. It's the sort of system I prefer, but alas it was not popular enough to get a second edition to clean out the jank so we have to houserule a lot.

D&D was my ... third? Fourth? major system pickup. (Shadowrun, Earthdawn, the World of Darkness starting with Vampire, then D&D. WIth a sidebar into Paranoia on the way there but that wasn't a system to me such as a howling descent into madness. :D ) Doing my own game design meant I had to shake the idea that I needed super detailed combat rules for a game that shouldn't be combat-focused, but it wasn't D&D that got me into that mindset, it's every major system.

(I settled on "look if you have one challenge to handle a social conversation or pick a lock, you have one challenge to figure out how your fight goes, not a round-by-round bullshit", for the record.)
kiya: (gaming)

[personal profile] kiya 2025-06-13 01:08 am (UTC)(link)
I keep meaning to have a look at PBTA stuff - there's a fellow who takes classes at the music school right after me, or did, and we had some gamer nerd sessions while I was hanging out - but I haven't dug into it yet. I'm fascinated by it as a sort of meta-engine that can be implemented in more specific ways.
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[personal profile] silveradept 2025-06-13 06:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll agree that there's a lot of commercial interest in the TTRPG space these days, and many systems, even the ones that look interesting, can be really expensive to get properly kitted to the basics, without things like miniatures, maps, and other such things, if that's what the system wants you to have. And a lot of people who are selling their mods, their characters, their ideas in association with that. I think it's tapping into the same kinds of nerds who want to competitively play CCGs or other player-versus-player enterprises and therefore have plenty of disposable income to put into both the systems and their supplements.

I'd also say there's still a lot of the TTRPG space that has consciously forgotten that Dungeons and Dragons evolved out of the tabletop wargame space, but still has the echo of that in their design and mechanics, even if they use different dice, different randomization methods, or other such things that make them appear superficially different. Which makes a lot of the wank about how you choose to use your randomizers and skills, rather than fundamentally different forms of gameplay. If there was a shared vocabulary, or at least nailing down definitions enough to make it clear which things applied where, I think we could do a lot of classification and organization, so that you could make it much clearer which game systems are closer or farther away from each other, and players could figure out which games are more likely to appeal to them and which ones aren't, without having to make the investment of time and/or money.

I do agree there should be more talking about on-line gaming, but less about the streamers and the cameras and that kind of thing and more about "what kind of neat tricks could you pull with a game or its various elements in a digital copy of a book, or an adventure book, or even how to make the rules work better when you can just Ctrl+F to find the thing you're looking for, and what kinds of resources do you have access to when you can play games over the Internet, in Tabletop Simulator, or other such spaces that make the table digital?" There's still the assumption that everyone is going to be bringing books and paper to a physical table in a local space, even if they might have something like a digital dice roller or similar.
Edited 2025-06-13 18:33 (UTC)
silveradept: A kodama with a trombone. The trombone is playing music, even though it is held in a rest position (Default)

[personal profile] silveradept 2025-06-14 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I have seen many mindfulness exercises disguising themselves as solo journaling RPGs.

The design of things that aren't intended to be printed really could go places, but also, having a version that can be printed is probably also something to keep in mind.

(And yes, definitely, please get them proofed and tested with people who don't have access to the designer to make them better and more enjoyable to others.)
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[personal profile] tresfoyle 2025-06-13 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)
as rightfully maligned as Google Plus and the Forge often were as discourse communities, I think their collapse/subsidence did a hell of a lot to just utterly hamstring the process of developing a useful body of critical language when talking about game design. I was, admittedly, mostly plugged in to the OSR scene (and even then really only in the wake of G+ going under), but it seemed like that community was actually producing a pretty engaging and publicly accessible body of theory about how to design and run Their Kinds Of Games (and I have to admit that the Joesky Tax is an idea worth resurfacing in the public discourse). It seems like tabletop discourse communities desperately need an active, long-form, text-driven platform with room for people to turtle up when necessary in order to sustain a remotely functional, non-marketing-driven tabletop dev conversation online.
(Still, much as I don't like how much things seem to mostly play out on Bluesky and Twitter now, I am grateful that fuckers like Zak S don't seem to have found quite the same niche to thrive in as they did back in the day...)